Box vs Knife Pleats

[CBH]

I just discovered that the US Tartan Museum is located in Franklin NC.

https://scottishtartansmuseum.org/

On their site, they offer 3 kilt types. One of which is a box pleat, which they state was the accepted standard for kilts "from the late 18th century till the middle of the 19th century", when today's knife pleats took over. Its not clear why they offer this single type of "historic" kilt and no others.

I was only surprised because I have not seen that posted here, and there are plenty of Kilt Historians active on our forum.

I was curious about this change in tradition. Also found it curious that box pleating is what Pakistani kilts use. They're obviously easier to sew and use less material, which is why I presumed Pakistanis use it. I did not know there was potentially a historic tie-in as well.

[jhockin]

If you use the search function ( top right corner), and search terms like : : 4 yd. Box- pleated; box- pleat; etc., you will find a long list of posts relating to box- pleated kilts.

[OC Richard]

...box pleat, which they state was the accepted standard for kilts "from the late 18th century till the middle of the 19th century", when today's knife pleats took over.

Peter would know best, but I will say that of the 5 kilted Highland regiments that survived the 1809 cuts the 78th, 79th, and 93rd used box pleats up until these regiments were amalgamated, and the Royal Regiment of Scotland today uses box pleats.

I don't know how far back it goes, but at some point the 42nd and 92nd adopted knife pleats.

So in the Scottish Highland regiments knife pleats were always in the minority and have now been abandoned altogether.

Also found it curious that box pleating is what Pakistani kilts use.

I don't think I've ever seen a Pakistani boxpleated kilt except for the military re-enactor kilts that What Price Glory was having made, their kilts for the 79th, 78th, and 93rd Highlanders being boxpleated of course.

Box pleats aren't easier to make, nor do they take less material, than knife pleats.

I took a kiltmaking class from Elsie Stuehmeyer who in the 1950s worked for the major Scottish kiltmaker of the time, Thomas Gordon & Son, where she made tons of military kilts both boxpleated and knifepleated.

She said up until a certain point in the construction (after the pleats are stitched) the two kilts were identical, with the same amount of fabric, same number of pleats, and same depth of pleats.

She demonstrated how she would fold each pleat in order to create the boxpleated look. She said it was a pain to do them, as it added an extra step to the making.

If you're referring to the "four yard boxpleated kilt", there's no 1-to-1 relationship between the number of yards and the sort of pleats. You can have a boxpleated kilt with four, six, or eight yards, ditto knifepleated kilts.

My impression is that Matt Newsome, perhaps based on a specific museum kilt, started making and selling 4-yard boxpleated kilts as a US-based historical re-creation. I'd never heard of such kilts until I learned about Matt and the Tartans Museum.

I collect vintage Highland Dress catalogues from the Scottish makers from c1905 up through the 1970s and none of those Scottish makers mention kilts like that. Rather, they offered ordinary knifepleated modern kilts in 6, 7, and 8 yards.

Here's a military 8-yard boxpleated kilt from the 78th Highlanders/Seaforth Highlanders



Here's a closeup of the pleats on an 8-yard boxpleated kilt from the 79th Highlanders/Cameron Highlanders.

You can see the extra fold in each pleat.

[CBH]

I knew OC Richard would know.

I can see the box pleats pretty good in the bottom photo, but its hard to tell in the top one. If Pakistani kilts are not done that way, they still look kinda similar to the bottom photo. They certainly don't look like tight knife pleats you typically see on Scottish knife pleats. But maybe they're just so much bigger ? Hard to say..........

They don't mind copying copy-protected Tartan designs, so why don't they copy the pleating style ? Would acrylic not hold the crease well enough to pull it off ?

[tripleblessed]

My impression is that Matt Newsome, perhaps based on a specific museum kilt, started making and selling 4-yard boxpleated kilts as a US-based historical re-creation. I'd never heard of such kilts until I learned about Matt and the Tartans Museum.

IIRC I was told years ago that Matt was taught by Bob Martin, who did box pleats based on his personal research. Matt left the the Tartan Museum to take a
position as a college chaplain, and we no longer see him at the Stone Mountain Games. His other obligations got him backlogged with kilts and he ceased taking new orders until catching up; I don't know where he stands at the moment.

I don't know if Bob Martin is still around or active with kilts, but both he and Matt published their writings, and those who have one of their kilts treasure them.
My understanding is that Bob recommended four yard box pleat kilts of heavyweight cloth; he and Matthew being based in the Carolinas were aware of the
warmth and weight of 8-yarders in the South. They provided a solution. Four yards for weight and cooler, 16oz. cloth for durability rather than more yards of lighter cloth.

That's all I've got, and I think it is at least loosely connected with reality.

[Jock Scot]

I just discovered that the US Tartan Museum is located in Franklin NC.

https://scottishtartansmuseum.org/

On their site, they offer 3 kilt types. One of which is a box pleat, which they state was the accepted standard for kilts "from the late 18th century till the middle of the 19th century", when today's knife pleats took over. Its not clear why they offer this single type of "historic" kilt and no others.

I was only surprised because I have not seen that posted here, and there are plenty of Kilt Historians active on our forum.

I was curious about this change in tradition. Also found it curious that box pleating is what Pakistani kilts use. They're obviously easier to sew and use less material, which is why I presumed Pakistanis use it. I did not know there was potentially a historic tie-in as well.

I seem to recall, when I joined this website too many years ago to count, there were several threads and posts on the subject. Perhaps you can still find them in this website’s archives?

[GG]

IIRC I was told years ago that Matt was taught by Bob Martin, who did box pleats based on his personal research. Matt left the the Tartan Museum to take a
position as a college chaplain, and we no longer see him at the Stone Mountain Games. His other obligations got him backlogged with kilts and he ceased taking new orders until catching up; I don't know where he stands at the moment.

Matt A.C. Newsome has got a new life, which may not include kilts, it seems:

https://medium.com/@macnewsome/about

https://www.catholic365.com/author/matthew-newsome/

[GG]

I knew OC Richard would know.

I can see the box pleats pretty good in the bottom photo, but its hard to tell in the top one. If Pakistani kilts are not done that way, they still look kinda similar to the bottom photo. They certainly don't look like tight knife pleats you typically see on Scottish knife pleats. But maybe they're just so much bigger ? Hard to say..........

They don't mind copying copy-protected Tartan designs, so why don't they copy the pleating style ? Would acrylic not hold the crease well enough to pull it off ?

Pakistani made kilts are knife pleated, at least mine are, as you can see on the photos:







The fabric may not allow for as crisp pleats as in my best Scottish wool kilts.

[figheadair]

I don't know if Bob Martin is still around or active with kilts

Alas, Bob, who was along-time friend and colleague, died in 2017.

https://www.legacy.com/us/obituaries...ry?id=11478344

[figheadair]

I just discovered that the US Tartan Museum is located in Franklin NC.

https://scottishtartansmuseum.org/

On their site, they offer 3 kilt types. One of which is a box pleat, which they state was the accepted standard for kilts "from the late 18th century till the middle of the 19th century", when today's knife pleats took over. Its not clear why they offer this single type of "historic" kilt and no others.

I was only surprised because I have not seen that posted here, and there are plenty of Kilt Historians active on our forum.

I was curious about this change in tradition. Also found it curious that box pleating is what Pakistani kilts use. They're obviously easier to sew and use less material, which is why I presumed Pakistanis use it. I did not know there was potentially a historic tie-in as well.

The original box pleated kilt, and what the military call a box pleat are different. The four-yard kilt had an even, broad box-pleat i.e. the depth of the pleat was the same on both sides. It was the standard pleating from c.1780-30/40. This one dates to c.1800 and is pleated randomly.



Military kilts of the time were box-pleated to stripe. This 92nd (Gordon) kilt dates to 1796.



Some time between 1830-40 the amount of material in civilian kilts increased to around 5 yards. In order to accommodate the extra material the pleats were narrowed and slightly overlapped. Bob Martin referred to this style as a box-knife pleat because it was a sort of interim or transitional style. It it this style that was retained by some military regiments such as the Black Watch, Cameron Highlanders, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders etc. This pleating was also to stripe.



It is said that the 92nd (Gordons) never adopted this transitional form and moved directly to the (modern) knife pleat around 1850-60. box-knife pleats continued to be the preferred form for both civilian and military kilts until c.1880 when the first knife-pleated civilian kilts appeared. These were still pleated to stripe. Pleating to sett seems to have come in around 1890-1900.