Great Kilt Weight

[Angus]

This is the first time Ive ever done this and not sure how it will work but here goes.
I've been thinking bout this for a while and havent found anything on the net so I'm gonna ask all of you.
In the original belted plaid everyone has perty well tacked down the length and width of it but I'm very curious to know the original WEIGHT of the cloth.
Like was it closer to the 13oz cloth or is it more like a 30oz cloth if one exists, I dont know, thats why I'm asking you.

This is been bugging me for a while now, and my apologies if youve already answered this somewhere on here before, but any and all info will be much appreciated.

[Sir Robert]

I have been researching this question and I beleive that the wollen cloth used must have been quite light, like maybe a 10 ounce weight per/yard.

Why do I say that? Well I just now tried two old army blankets in the range of about your 30 oz wool and found it to be way to heavy and it did not drape the way the great kilt does in contemporary paintings.

I tried a much lighter material and found it to be comfortable to wear and draped as in the old paintings.

One thing that you notice is how much material is used in a great kilt but it looks so loose and fluffy. If the material used were heavier I do not beleive that as much cloth would have been needed. Right?

Now let us test this: "MAC are there any existing great kilts and/or wollen cloth from that period?" "If so could you guess a weight?"

[Archangel]

Okay, so my own kilt is the old full regimental heavy weight from mills that aren't running anymore. What is it you want me to do?
By comparison my Canadian Army surplus kilt, modern heavy weight is significantly lighter. The surplus one is heavier than anything I've seen on the market.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Do we have any existing great kilts? No -- because in essense these things were blankets, and what do you do with an old blanket that has gotten thread bear and no longer usable? You cut it up and use it for rags, or toss it. So none survive for us.

But here is why I don't think that there is a single answer for this question. The great kilt was worn from the late sixteenth century up through the eighteenth. That's a long time, and no doubt the weight of cloth varied during that period. And just like we have various weights of cloth available to us now to make our kilts from, they likely made their kilts from a variety of weights, as well.

I have seen cloth that I am fairly certain was used for eighteenth century women's arisaides (the feminine equivalent of the great kilt) and that was fairly heavy, but not what we would call "regimental weight." It would probably be a 14/15 oz if I had to hazard a guess.

Aye,
Matt

[Jimmy Carbomb]

When I met with the guys from the Court, they told me to imagine wrapping myself in an Army Blanket... and that's what was original. Now, how they could hazard that guess, I don't know. They know a load more than me. Perhaps it's from scraps that they excavated? Perhaps it's from old manuscripts?

Much like Todd and his history lessons for us, I depend on the Court at Lyon for my information. After that... it's Matt.:grin:

[Angus]

I have been researching this question and I beleive that the wollen cloth used must have been quite light, like maybe a 10 ounce weight per/yard.

Why do I say that? Well I just now tried two old army blankets in the range of about your 30 oz wool and found it to be way to heavy and it did not drape the way the great kilt does in contemporary paintings.

I tried a much lighter material and found it to be comfortable to wear and draped as in the old paintings.

One thing that you notice is how much material is used in a great kilt but it looks so loose and fluffy. If the material used were heavier I do not beleive that as much cloth would have been needed. Right?

Now let us test this: "MAC are there any existing great kilts and/or wollen cloth from that period?" "If so could you guess a weight?"

Thanks for the reply, I really didn't think it was a 30oz cloth i just threw out a number. I asked MAC about the contemporary paintings I wanted to know about one in perticular specifically the pleating, it looked box pleated to me and he said that they were painted a good long while after the belted plaid had been in every day use. Something about how the artist used his imagination and painted what he wanted, and not necessarily historically accurate.

Do we have any existing great kilts? No -- because in essense these things were blankets, and what do you do with an old blanket that has gotten thread bear and no longer usable? You cut it up and use it for rags, or toss it. So none survive for us.

But here is why I don't think that there is a single answer for this question. The great kilt was worn from the late sixteenth century up through the eighteenth. That's a long time, and no doubt the weight of cloth varied during that period. And just like we have various weights of cloth available to us now to make our kilts from, they likely made their kilts from a variety of weights, as well.

I have seen cloth that I am fairly certain was used for eighteenth century women's arisaides (the feminine equivalent of the great kilt) and that was fairly heavy, but not what we would call "regimental weight." It would probably be a 14/15 oz if I had to hazard a guess.

Aye,
Matt

Thanks for the answer Matt, I appreciiate it.
I was under the impression that the Great Kilt as being essentially a blanket that it would be much like an army suprlus wool blanket. Really heavy and really super warm.
Dont get me wrong, my 13oz great kilt is good and warm in the winter I even wear it out hunting, but I just thought that if a highlander was gonna lay down on snow to sleep for the night wouldnt he want a heavier plaid than a 10-13 oz wool?

When I met with the guys from the Court, they told me to imagine wrapping myself in an Army Blanket... and that's what was original. Now, how they could hazard that guess, I don't know. They know a load more than me. Perhaps it's from scraps that they excavated? Perhaps it's from old manuscripts?

Much like Todd and his history lessons for us, I depend on the Court at Lyon for my information. After that... it's Matt.

Thats exactly what I thought about the army blanket cuz why would you wear something that isnt gonna keep you warm and toasty.
I feel the same way about matt but what's the Court at Lyon?

[Sir Robert]

Okay how about this: Two places and times, Winter in the highlands what would you wear? Heavy? Spring, but might get coolish at night, medium/light weight wool. Summer you might not wear the great kilt at all.

[macwilkin]

Such is the problem with researching historical fashions and clothing -- even in the 19th century period, there is sometimes very little evidence of what people wore and what people carried -- we ran into this in Civil War reenacting all the time -- and while there are plenty of photographs, tintypes, deguerrotypes, CDVs, etc. from the period, can a photo be a generic representation of how people dressed & looked across the country? We can get close, but no cigar, so to speak.

The problem lies in the fact that few people write in journals, letters, etc. with detailed descriptions of their clothing -- what is made from, stiches to the inch (a large point of contention in reenacting), what colours, etc. Very few written accounts that give us complete descriptions of attire. How many times (with the exception of this board) do we discribe our attire in great detail today to someone in an e-mail, letter, etc.? We, just like people in the past, didn't think about someone in the future "needing" that sort of detailed description.

Even something that should be fairly easy like military uniforms can be a challenge, although there are original examples in museums, etc. -- but even then, would every soldier have worn this particular type of jacket? Why was it saved? Was it modified for civilian use, such as some of the smoothbore military-issue muskets (class B weapons) issued to troops at the beginning of the war? Granted, we do have official documents, such as quartermaster returns, etc., but not for everyone.

The discussion about the blanket & it's heaviness reminds me of the army blanket I carry in CW and Spanish-American War period -- it is a reproduction of a wool blanket carried by a Wisconsin soldier from the Wisconsin Veteran's Museum in Madison -- but "wool" is somewhat misleading, because it's actually made from "shoddy" -- the leftover material, cheap, and of poor quality. It's a great blanket in the summer, but not the best in the winter time by itself. Much of the contract uniforms & equipment issued were this way, made by greedy companies looking to make a buck. But I digress...

One trick I have heard of Highlanders doing in the winter is to wet their great kilts and to allow a layer of ice to form, which creates insulation from the cold -- not sure if it really works, but you never know. I do know that layering yourself in several garments will actually make you colder, as cold air will get trapped between the shirts, etc. and make you cooler than you would be -- I've seen that first-hand as a newbie reenactor.

The wool uniforms issued to Civil War soldiers are about 13-15 oz. weight, the same as Matt's estimate for the arisaide, and that weight will keep you warm outside in the winter. I remember when heavy "blanket-weight" repro uniforms were "big" in reenacting, but when you look at original uniforms, they were much lighter-weight wool.

Jimmy's reference: the Court of Lord Lyon...LL is the official keeper of Heraldry (coats-of-arms) in Scotland, and is also a good source for historical information.

Sorry, just my ramblings...didn't mean to get OT here...

Cheers,

Todd

[KMacT]

I do know that layering yourself in several garments will actually make you colder, as cold air will get trapped between the shirts, etc. and make you cooler than you would be -- I've seen that first-hand as a newbie reenactor.

My experience from living up here in the Great White North is just the opposite, and for the opposite reason. The multiple layers make air pockets, yes, but those pockets inhibit the loss of heat from the body in the same way that home insulation inhibits the loss of heat from a house. After all, insulation is basically just air pockets.

Maybe we are actually talking apples and oranges, though. I refer to several layers of clothing that are *not* loosely fitting and flapping in the wind. But having said that, on a cold day I'd rather have two blankets thrown over me than just one.

Kevin

[Archangel]

snip

One trick I have heard of Highlanders doing in the winter is to wet their great kilts and to allow a layer of ice to form, which creates insulation from the cold -- not sure if it really works, but you never know. I do know that layering yourself in several garments will actually make you colder, as cold air will get trapped between the shirts, etc. and make you cooler than you would be -- I've seen that first-hand as a newbie reenactor.

snip

Todd

I wonder if that would be a misunderstanding of the properties of wool. Wool is unique in that body heat moves the moisture to the outside of the material. So sleeping in a damp/wet cloth would move the moisture to the outside where it would freeze, and coincidentally, insulate. Ice is at 0C, the outside air could be -whatever, the ice will stay fairly constant.

Remember, for the reenactors, it took the non-combat losses of those wars to develop and refine the thermal materials we have today. Don't get too realistic under the visible parts in winter.