Clans Crawford & Lindsay

[fortcollinsjerry]

As a Crawford, I am a Sept of Clan Lindsay. It's noted on the Clan Lindsay web site that the Lindsay Coat of Arms is the exclusive property of a Lord Crawford and only members of his family may wear the Coat. I'm confused and need edification.

1. As a Crawford may I wear the Arms or must I ask The Lords permission?

2. Who is the Lord and where does he live? Would he think me presumptuous to ask? I don't know Scottish social rules.

[teamCrawford]

Hello fellow Crawford! I read your question and tried to find an answer as well. Talk about confusing! It seems that coats of arms are very personal and there are many different ones. I would be more inclined to wear proudly the clan crest, which is not governed by so many rules of protocol. Nothing against the Lindsays which I know we are closely related to, but I like wearing our own Crawford crest.

I don't know it it is helpful or just more confusing, but here is a link I found.

http://crawfordshistorylesson.blogsp...t-of-arms.html

These guys are very knowledgable here so I'm sure one of them can answer your question. I'm mostly just a lurker.

[JSFMACLJR]

As a Crawford, I am a Sept of Clan Lindsay. It's noted on the Clan Lindsay web site that the Lindsay Coat of Arms is the exclusive property of a Lord Crawford and only members of his family may wear the Coat. I'm confused and need edification.

1. As a Crawford may I wear the Arms or must I ask The Lords permission?

2. Who is the Lord and where does he live? Would he think me presumptuous to ask? I don't know Scottish social rules.

Hello!

You may not wear or use the armorial bearings of Lord Crawford. In Scotland, grants of arms from the Lord Lyon King of Arms are made to individuals and become their property, to be used by them, and them alone. There is no such thing in Scotland as a "family coat of arms," or even a Clan coat of arms. The arms belong to an individual. The chief of a clan's arms are his. A clansman, though, enjoys the privilege of wearing the chief's crest (the part of the achievement above the helmet usually) within a buckle and strap, which signifies that the clansman is a follower of the owner of the crest.

There are a great number of resources available to you to learn more about the fascinating science of Scots heraldry:
1. The Heraldry Society of Scotland
http://www.heraldry-scotland.co.uk/
2. The Society of Scottish Armigers
http://www.scotarmigers.net/

Kind regards,
Sandford MacLean

[JSFMACLJR]

As a Crawford, I am a Sept of Clan Lindsay. It's noted on the Clan Lindsay web site that the Lindsay Coat of Arms is the exclusive property of a Lord Crawford and only members of his family may wear the Coat. I'm confused and need edification.

1. As a Crawford may I wear the Arms or must I ask The Lords permission?

2. Who is the Lord and where does he live? Would he think me presumptuous to ask? I don't know Scottish social rules.

The Chief of the Clan Lindsay is The Rt. Hon The Earl of Crawford and Balcarres. A good place to find out something about Lord Crawford is this article on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...rl_of_Crawford

[macwilkin]

I would be more inclined to wear proudly the clan crest, which is not governed by so many rules of protocol.

Actually, the clansman's badge is governed by the rules of protocol, because it is actually the crest of the clan chief. The buckle-and-strap device around the crest signifies that the wearer is a clansman/woman of the Chief. Clan members may not use the clansman's badge as their own, i.e. on stationary, without recognising that the badge "belongs" to the Chief.

Oops! I see Sandford already posted something similar, but it still bears repeating.

Regards,

Todd

[teamCrawford]

This is very intersting. So all of the clan badges and doo dads that are sold bearing family crests need permission as well? I did not know that and I don't think a lot of people know this. I mean they can be ordered from just about any Scottish goods place. My brother has a cap badge with the Crawford family crest and there is one on the cap of his skein dubh as well. We didn't know one needed specific permission to wear these.

This is all very interesting reading. I knew the coats of arms were pretty much personal property, but I didn't know the mass produced crest items were as well. I can find objects like my avatar so many places.

[macwilkin]

This is very intersting. So all of the clan badges and doo dads that are sold bearing family crests need permission as well? I did not know that and I don't think a lot of people know this. I mean they can be ordered from just about any Scottish goods place. My brother has a cap badge with the Crawford family crest and there is one on the cap of his skein dubh as well. We didn't know one needed specific permission to wear these.

This is all very interesting reading. I knew the coats of arms were pretty much personal property, but I didn't know the mass produced crest items were as well. I can find objects like my avatar so many places.

Whilst you do not need permission to wear a clansman's badge, many people make the assumption that the badge belongs to the surname, when in fact, it belongs to the Chief, since the crest comes from the Chief's arms. That was what Sandford and I were getting at.

The following document from the Society of Scottish Armiger's web site (in .pdf format) will explain the traditions surrounding the clansman's badge:

http://www.scotarmigers.net/pdfs/info-leaflet-2.pdf

Regards,

Todd

[macwilkin]

I posted this in another thread, but since it is germane to this thread's topic, I'll post it here as well:

Unfortunately this has led to the recent misunderstanding (primarily in the Southeastern US) that the Crawford surname is a sept of Clan Lindsay, which according to the Lyon Court is inherently inappropriate, in stark disagreement with the more accurate and appropriate Clan Lindsay International and Clan Lindsay Australia who acknowledge merely an ally relationship. Regardless of competing unsupported claims, the Lyon Court recognizes the Crawford surname as an independent armigerous House with a Senior Line (unofficial Chiefs) having for centuries registered Arms showing no differencing [except internal to cadets of the House and an honorary augmentation] or allegiance to another clan, house, or surname, this being the ultimate legal test of independence (not a sept). Nevertheless, we do appreciate a fellowship of parity from any clan or association.

-- http://www.clancrawford.org/

Regards,

Todd

[teamCrawford]

Thank you very much for clarifying what you were saying. It makes perfect sense to me now. I apologise to fortcollins for hijacking his thread. But I understand now.

I learned that the Crawfords were not really a sept of the Lindsays a few years back. However, I couldn't remember enough of the information to feel I could make a decent post to fortcollins about said situation. Thank you for that as well.

[BruceBC]

Be a trend setter - make up your own crest and coats of arms