What about the long kilts?

[Roan Carter]

I was just wanting to ask if there was any historical foundation for the "long kilt" that goes to the ankles.

I'm aware of the late medieval illustration of Scots in kilts of various length, but I was wandering if anyone could share any more information on the subject matter.

I seem to recall hearing a martial arts instructor mention that long skirts served well to conceal footwork, and I'm beginning to get the impression there was a lot of that in British traditional martial arts ("cock stepping," etc.) Just a thought.

This is for an illustration I'm making of kilted fighters.

[An t-Ileach]

They're probably the feileadh mor with the top bit let down to the ankles all around.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I'm not sure what "late medieval" illustrations you are talking about, but the feilidh-mhor cannot be documented any earlier than the end of the sixteenth century (1594) with the first illustrations not coming until early in the seventeenth century -- and most of the illustrations I have seen show it worn with the upper part secured in some way on or around the shoulders, so the kilt shows only knee length. Just from my own memory, the only illustrations I can think of that show it with the upper part down are eighteenth century. So hardly "late medieval" by any standard, so I don't think what you are describing is a feilidh-mhor.

My best guess would be that you are thinking of the leine, or Gaelic tunic. Read my article here:
http://albanach.org/leine.html

You can see some illustrations of this garment. It was worn full length by women, and some men of high station. Most men, especially those who engaged in a lot of phyisical activity like soldiers, farmers, etc., wore the leine to the knee only, either by hiking up a full length leine giving the upper part a blousier appearance, or simply by wearing a leine cut to the knee.

See if any of the illustrations in my article are like those you are thinking of. In any case, this is not a kilt at all by any definition, but a long shirt.

Aye,
Matt

[Caradoc]

You can see some illustrations of this garment. It was worn full length by women, and some men of high station. Most men, especially those who engaged in a lot of phyisical activity like soldiers, farmers, etc., wore the leine to the knee only, either by hiking up a full length leine giving the upper part a blousier appearance, or simply by wearing a leine cut to the knee.

My own leine reaches to the top of the calf. While wearing a belted plaid, I pull it up to blouse the top out and hide the hem under the "kilt" part of the belted plaid.

The linen keeps the wool off the sensitive bits.

[mudd]

My own leine reaches to the top of the calf.

Where does one get a shirt(leine) like that?

[Mithral]

Where does one get a shirt(leine) like that?

You can make one, or if you'd prefer to buy one, you can find them online here and there. I think www.garbtheworld.com does a pretty good one, though I haven't really looked into how authentic it is, if authenticity is your primary concern.

[Caradoc]

Where does one get a shirt(leine) like that?

Well...

Of the two I have, one was made by my lady, and the other was traded for a batch of baklava made by my lady.

So, if you're me, it helps to have a lady.

[Iolaus]

Where does one get a shirt(leine) like that?

Do you want something traditional or a modern equivalent?

A lot of places sell sleeping shirts that reach to the knees; many of them look like what they are (larger neck-line, soft flannel), but some of them look like they're just an extra long t-shirt. If all you want is a t-shirt that will line your kilt, many of those will do just fine.

[Mithral]

I'm not sure what "late medieval" illustrations you are talking about, but the feilidh-mhor cannot be documented any earlier than the end of the sixteenth century (1594) with the first illustrations not coming until early in the seventeenth century -- and most of the illustrations I have seen show it worn with the upper part secured in some way on or around the shoulders, so the kilt shows only knee length. Just from my own memory, the only illustrations I can think of that show it with the upper part down are eighteenth century. So hardly "late medieval" by any standard, so I don't think what you are describing is a feilidh-mhor.

My best guess would be that you are thinking of the leine, or Gaelic tunic. Read my article here:
http://albanach.org/leine.html

You can see some illustrations of this garment. It was worn full length by women, and some men of high station. Most men, especially those who engaged in a lot of phyisical activity like soldiers, farmers, etc., wore the leine to the knee only, either by hiking up a full length leine giving the upper part a blousier appearance, or simply by wearing a leine cut to the knee.

See if any of the illustrations in my article are like those you are thinking of. In any case, this is not a kilt at all by any definition, but a long shirt.

Aye,
Matt

I believe the illustration intended is this:

A woodcut from your Early Scottish Dress book and from your website which you identify as being from 1641. True, not medieval, but earlier than 18th century

[M. A. C. Newsome]

On that 1641 woodcut, three of the men are kilted -- one has a kilt above the knee, one right on the knee, and one well below the knee, but still not ankle length.

I was thinking of some of the earlier illustrations showing the longer leine.

M