Tartan complaint

**ardchoille** · 27th August 07, 04:22 PM

While I have never seen an ugly tartan, I do have a small complaint.

I have seen tons of MacGregor tartans from "weathered" to "dress" to "dancing" to "trade" tartans all carrying the MacGregor name.. and I'll bet this isn't limited to just Clan Gregor. My complaint stems from the fact that the tartans which carry the MacGregor name should be officially recognised by the clan Chief or they should not carry the MacGregor name. Here is an excerpt from Sir Malcolm's (our clan Chief) article, written for the American Clan Gregor Society, on his views and position on the subject of MacGregor Tartan:

To summarize, the authority for a tartan is vested in the chief and the only ones that I recognize are those specified above. There may well be a special occasion in the future that demands the creation of a tartan but that will be exceptional. Of course people can wear what they like. But tartan and the wearing of it is very much part of today's clan system and needs to be distinctive, rather like a uniform. Too many tartans and we become part of the tartan army and unrecognizable as MacGregors.

More from our Chief:

We have never gone in for dress, undress, dress down, fancy dress, hunting or any other such descriptions unlike other clans.

The full content of this letter can be viewed here.

Why are these tartans allowed to carry the MacGregor name? Am I wrong in my way of thinking about this?

**ChromeScholar** · 27th August 07, 04:39 PM

Because, like it or not, Your clan and clan chief do not own the name MacGregor, nor Gregor, nor does your Clan Chief have the weight of law behind him when it comes to tartans, thus anyone can make up any tartan they like and call it (just about) anything they like, including MacGregor dress, hunting, weathered, etc. There is, at the moment, nothing your clan chief can do about it, save for telling the world which tartans he deems to be official and accepted.

**ardchoille** · 27th August 07, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by ChromeScholar

Because, like it or not, Your clan and clan chief do not own the name MacGregor, nor Gregor, nor does your Clan Chief have the weight of law behind him when it comes to tartans, thus anyone can make up any tartan they like and call it (just about) anything they like, including MacGregor dress, hunting, weathered, etc. There is, at the moment, nothing your clan chief can do about it, save for telling the world which tartans he deems to be official and accepted.

Well, you have a good point.

**McMurdo** · 27th August 07, 04:53 PM

I took this from your link and believe that it answers your questions as to why these tartans can be called "MacGregor Tartans."

MacGregor Tartan

Many will be aware of an organization called the Scottish Tartans Society based in Edinburgh. On looking at the website one will find no less than 10 tartans attributed to Clan Gregor. Some are described inaccurately and some are attributed twice to a specific area such as Glenstrae. Most of them have never been sanctioned by the Chief. Additionally, the tartans section of www.clangregor.com completely inaccurate and should not be regarded as an authority on MacGregor tartan whatsoever. Why is this? And how does this happen?

It happens because those who can speak with a fair degree of authority on the matter such as clan chiefs and their representatives are not consulted and because of the indiscriminate commercialization of tartan. The more tartans there are, the more that are likely to be sold. A tongue in check extension of this is that a MacGregor could wear a different tartan for each day of the week and have three in reserve for special occasions. Every eventuality is covered! This approach is disingenuous and leads to confusion. It is worth bearing in mind that authority for clan tartans is vested in the Chief by Lord Lyon.

It should be said at the outset that for good historical reasons, which will be explained, only the following MacGregor tartans should be recognized as such:

* The Red and Black MacGregor Tartan
* The Red and Green MacGregor Tartan
* MacGregor of Glengyle or Deeside
* MacGregor of Cardney

**macwilkin** · 27th August 07, 04:56 PM

Psst...please post all tartan-related threads in the heraldry & tartans forum! :mrgreen:

T.

**ardchoille** · 27th August 07, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by McMurdo

I took this from your link and believe that it answers your questions as to why these tartans can be called "MacGregor Tartans."

Well, that's true, that passage is there. However, I would think that anyone creating anything and planning to put a clan name on it would check with the authority of that clan, as the first step, in order to obtain permission. That's what I would do anyway. I just see it as a sign of respect. But, then again, "respect" is something many do not have in abundance.

Note to cajunscot: Sorry about posting in the wrong section, I'll try to avoid that in the future.

**Monkey@Arms** · 27th August 07, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by ardchoille

Well, that's true, that passage is there. However, I would think that anyone creating anything and planning to put a clan name on it would check with the authority of that clan, as the first step, in order to obtain permission. That's what I would do anyway. I just see it as a sign of respect. But, then again, "respect" is something many do not have in abundance.

Note to cajunscot: Sorry about posting in the wrong section, I'll try to avoid that in the future.

There might be a "chicken and egg" problem with your argument. You assume that the clan actually had a designated tartan before the weavers started naming various patterns "MacGregor." I know nothing of the MacGregors so that could be true, but for many clans the reality is just the opposite. There was no designated tartan, and the chiefs asked the weaving houses which tartan was theirs, as opposed to giving them "permission."

This article by Matt explains it better than I can. "The sources of tartan."

Best regards,

Jake

**ardchoille** · 27th August 07, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Monkey@Arms

There might be a "chicken and egg" problem with your argument. You assume that the clan actually had a designated tartan before the weavers started naming various patterns "MacGregor." I know nothing of the MacGregors so that could be true, but for many clans the reality is just the opposite. There was no designated tartan, and the chiefs asked the weaving houses which tartan was theirs, as opposed to giving them "permission."

This article by Matt explains it better than I can.
"A tartan by any other name."

Best regards,

Jake

That explains quite a bit. Thank you for that link

It seems my way of thinking about this was in error.

**gilmore** · 27th August 07, 06:41 PM

As I recall, one of the oldest tartans is one of the MacGregor's, the simple red and black Rob Roy tartan.

**Archangel** · 27th August 07, 07:14 PM

As a McGregor, you got my attention. I hadn't really concerned myself with this issue. Anyway, I read the Lord Lyon as saying the chief has the authority to do something about it. I'm not sure what that would be in terms of court and there's no indication that the Chief is going to do anything.
I guess mine is the last one on his list. I've outgrown it but I'm proud to have worn it.
My next McGregor will be the "film" tartan. I like it and I think it has done more for McGregors than anything else in recent history (Ewan aside). I read the movie designers reasons for that kilt and I believe it has as much authenticity as any other presented. (If somebody kept a copy of that, it would be great to see it reposted.)

All respect to the Chief, but when he sees fit to challenge the other tartans in court, I'll reconsider my position.

McGregor: despite them.