Clans without Crests

**DamnthePants** · 8th June 09, 09:26 PM

Its been along time since I’ve posted. I’ve still been around reading things, just not posting them.

I have a question though.

My last name is Park, which I have been told by my father that it is in fact from Scotland. I know its true, I’ve looked it up and I have found much text saying that it is. The only problem is, there is no data about anything else. There must be hundreds of clans that have no motto or crest, or tartan.

What is a person to do in this situation?

**Colonel MacNeal** · 8th June 09, 09:32 PM

http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/Heritage/F...s/Septs_P.html

Park is a Sept of MacDonald of Clan Raynald. I won't go into all the details here, but septs are families that are affiliated with the clans, and they are allowed to wear the tartan and clan badge of the clan.

**gilmore** · 8th June 09, 09:40 PM

Originally Posted by DamnthePants

Its been along time since I’ve posted. I’ve still been around reading things, just not posting them.

I have a question though.

My last name is Park, which I have been told by my father that it is in fact from Scotland. I know its true, I’ve looked it up and I have found much text saying that it is. The only problem is, there is no data about anything else. There must be hundreds of clans that have no motto or crest, or tartan.

What is a person to do in this situation?

Mottoes and crests do not belong to a clan, but to the chief of a clan. And, according to Lord Lyon, if there is no chief, there really is no clan. A clan association is a different story.

**St. Amish** · 8th June 09, 10:24 PM

Park is a sept of MacDonald of Clanranald.

This is the clan's crest.

I personally like the old motto better:
"Dh'aindeoin co theiraedh e"
(Gainsay who dare)

**Colonel MacNeal** · 9th June 09, 01:36 AM

Or you could actually be Korean.

**Bluescelt** · 9th June 09, 03:31 AM

In some cases lowland family names are not associated with clans. Wearing a district tartan of the area your family came from can be a good way to feel connected.
Scott

**macwilkin** · 9th June 09, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by Bluescelt

In some cases lowland family names are not associated with clans. Wearing a district tartan of the area your family came from can be a good way to feel connected.
Scott

Gi'e this man the cheroot!

The whole idea/concept of an affiliated name only works if you can trace your line to the general area of the clan you wish to affiliate with; in other words, whilst Park may be indeed a "sept" of the Macdonalds of Clanranald, this gent's Parks may not even be from their territory.

Whilst I know many do not put as much stock in that as some do, it needed to be said. A district tartan or even a state tartan is a nice alternative, and Gaelic Themes does make "generic" cap badges with a Lion Rampant, Thistle or "Jimmy" (St. Andrew and his cross) for those with no badge to wear.

Regards,

Todd

**DamnthePants** · 9th June 09, 10:26 AM

Thanks for the information.

About Being Korean, for the longest time I had assumed I was, not directly, maybe 3-4 times removed one of my ancestors was. Turned out they weren’t

Since you have been so nice, maybe I can ask you a more controversial question.

Since there is no unique crest, no unique motto, no unique tartan, is it possible to create one? Historically I think the answer is yes. Through out histories as families, European nobles, split off because of feuds or marriage, there were changes made to their family crest to reflect that. Flags were changed, names were altered. As we are living in history now, and there should technically be no difference between 1009ad and 2009bc, I don’t think it would be too bad of an offence to create a crest or motto for my family.

The only real difference I can see is that there would be only a handful of people it would relate to, due ot the fact that its new.

What do you think?

**macwilkin** · 9th June 09, 10:58 AM

Since there is no unique crest, no unique motto, no unique tartan, is it possible to create one? Historically I think the answer is yes. Through out histories as families, European nobles, split off because of feuds or marriage, there were changes made to their family crest to reflect that. Flags were changed, names were altered. As we are living in history now, and there should technically be no difference between 1009ad and 2009bc, I don’t think it would be too bad of an offence to create a crest or motto for my family.

The only real difference I can see is that there would be only a handful of people it would relate to, due ot the fact that its new.

What do you think?

In Scottish tradition, there is no such thing as a "family crest". Arms belong to the chief of the name, and the crest badge is actually the chief's crest encircled by a buckle-and-strap with their motto.

As an American citizen, you may always assume arms (i.e. design your own), but they would be your arms alone, and not represent everyone with your surname. If you can trace your ancestry back to the British Isles, you could apply for a grant of arms from the Lyon Court or the College of Arms in England.

In other words, the answer is "not really". History supports the more conventional view of heraldry that arms belong to the individual, and that in Scottish heraldry, the chief's crest and motto are used by members of the clan.

And before this thread is deluged with the "no rules/do what you want" posts, I am merely presenting the traditional view of the subject. No personal insult or slight is intended.

Regards,

Todd

**gilmore** · 9th June 09, 08:22 PM

Originally Posted by DamnthePants

Thanks for the information.

About Being Korean, for the longest time I had assumed I was, not directly, maybe 3-4 times removed one of my ancestors was. Turned out they weren’t

Since you have been so nice, maybe I can ask you a more controversial question.

Since there is no unique crest, no unique motto, no unique tartan, is it possible to create one? Historically I think the answer is yes. Through out histories as families, European nobles, split off because of feuds or marriage, there were changes made to their family crest to reflect that. Flags were changed, names were altered. As we are living in history now, and there should technically be no difference between 1009ad and 2009bc, I don’t think it would be too bad of an offence to create a crest or motto for my family.

The only real difference I can see is that there would be only a handful of people it would relate to, due ot the fact that its new.

What do you think?

Arms, crests and mottoes are not created by individuals for themselves, traditionally, but granted to them by the fount of honor of their country, that is, the head of state, the crown, the sovereign. In Scotland the responsibility for doing this was given by the king to a person known as Lord Lyon who runs something called the Lyon Court, and is responsible for heraldric matters regarding Scots.

Crests are part of arms. They are the bit above the shield. The motto is also a part of the arms, and is written beneath the shield. Arms can belong to only one person at a time in the UK, including in Scotland, unless they are differenced, that is, have markings that show that the owner bears cadet arms.

If you made up your own arms---or crest and motto---some people, say, at a Rennaissance Fair, might they were clever and creative. Other people, say, at a ball at a British consulate, might think of them as ridiculous and pretentious, but would probably be too well-mannered to say anything to you directly about them.