Wha Widna Fecht For Charlie ? That is the question !

[Lachlan09]

If polled, I’m pretty sure that most here would side with the Jacobites historically, rather than with the House of Hanover or staying neutral. Some might even today still state support for a Jacobite sovereign on the British throne.

But would a Jacobite victory in 1745/6 actually have been good for Scotland ?

Take off the tartan-tinted spectacles and the answer might be no, as Arthur Herman, argues in his book “How the Scots Invented the Modern World: The True Story of How Western Europe's Poorest Nation Created Our World and Everything in It”.

What do you think ?

[davidlpope]

I think this thread is heading for trouble...

Remember this is a KILT forum
Posts and/or threads containing topics not related to kilts or topics deemed questionable by the forum staff may be deleted, without cause. This includes but is not limited to threads concerning kilt accessories used as weapons or used to carry weapons, what is worn under the kilt, the "is a kilt a skirt?" issue, the gender of those wearing kilts, National pride issues, etc...

Cordially,

David

[Lachlan09]

I think good old Scottish level-headed debate (in raised voices) is called for

[Arlen]

I think good old Scottish level-headed debate (in raised voices) is called for

I disagree. We've had this come up on the forum before and there is a strong enough difference of opinion between so many of the folk on here that arguments frequently start. (And we have some real history scholars on here.)

I'd say this is a political subject even with it's historical significance and it's not something to stir up.

[ThistleDown]

I'd say this is a political subject even with it's historical significance and it's not something to stir up.

I agree. All that we will learn from continuing this discussion is that we should have known better and should have done more thorough research in other threads before contributing our oh-so-personal and theoretical opinions to this one.

[Phil]

I'd say this is a political subject even with it's historical significance and it's not something to stir up.

I would have to disagree with you here, Arlen, insofar as the politics of Jacobitism have long since disappeared even though the religious divisions they engendered persist to this day. What I would agree with, however, is the pointlessness of such "what if.." discussions. My own view is that the OP has a romanticised view of BPC and his fruitless campaign when in fact it was probably nothing more than a cynical manipulation of gullible clansmen, many of whom were led (from behind of course) to their inevitable slaughter. And, of course, BPC played no part in the aftermath when genocide was carried out throughout the Highlands as a direct consequence of his uprising, leading eventually to the extinction of the clanship system as it had existed before his ill-fated adventure.

[Deil the Yin]

Very poignant, Phil. Your comment made me think about the significance of the '45 with regard to Gaelic Highland culture and the clan system. I would propose that had BPC been successful at regaining the throne, given he could then overcome the religious strife that followed etc and ruled relatively peacefully, Gaelic culture would have faded into virtual oblivion with the coming of the modern era.

That is to say that without the direct threat of extinction and cultural oppression from the Honovarians, there would not have been the burning desire to hold on to the past culture of Highland Scotland - which one might say was mostly of necessity for living in a harsh environment. And due to the fact that Gaelic culture was the minority in Scotland, it could easily be said that the phenomena of the "tartan army" of today would not have come about, and thus our cherished forum, too, would not be!

On a side note: I think a very similar thing could be said about Irish (language) and Irish culture- had the Brits not been forcing the country, in many places quite violently, the urge to preserve a Gaelic Ireland may well have been overcome by the desire to progress into a new century and modern times etc...

[Lachlan09]

Before I bow out of this thread, I am a polar opposite of romanticist over BPC. I hate the whole soppy thing except for its usefulness for tourism.

However, the effect the whole episode had on following Scottish generations fis real enough. So to know where it all came from is enough.

However, today Scotland is a different time and place and two and a half centuries of world history have flowed under the bridge since then, a world Scotland is part of. Jacobitism is a past little blip on the world historical map.

My ancestor Niel Gow was impressed into the Jacobite army in 1745, but he skipped asap - smart guy !

The Jacobites were a bunch of losers and Scotland soon hitched its future to the English star and helped create one of the most successful empires in history. That's something to be proud of. God Save The Queen.

[Bugbear]

I have read the book, along with some other books on Scottish history.

I have no idea what Scotland would be like if it had gone the other way. There is a trend of unintended consequences, or an extreme leading to something the extreme would be against, in Scottish history, as best as I can tell: John Knox/David Hume...

All I can really say is that Scottish history is a good study for Emergent Complexity, which happens to partly take it's origins from the work of Adam Smith et al., and the Scottish Enlightenment... Strange...

And now that I have made an idiot of myself, again, I'll shut up. Hope the thread stays reasonable.

[Phil]

Had Bonnie Prince Charlie regained the throne I have no doubt whatsoever that he would have followed his predecessors, James VI & I, and Charles I and II in ensconcing himself firmly in London surrounded by fawning courtiers and concentrating on leading an existence of debauchery and excess. Scotland would have been far from his thoughts and whether he would ever have visited the place is doubtful in the extreme. His forebears certainly did not!
Also remember that he, as a Catholic monarch, would have come up against the Presbyterian church in Scotland which had ensured through much bloodshed in the preceding century that no episcopal religion would be foisted upon them with its bishops looking to the monarch as their head.
I have no doubt that a fresh civil war would have ensued, perhaps magnifying the religious conflicts which exist even to this day.