Native Scots vs the scottish diaspora

[warrior]

I see alot of threads either asking for or gathering comments from native Scots on various topics such how they still wear the kilt or their opinion on the kilt outside it's natural home. I would like to ask a different question.
I like many approach the kilt as a means to recognise and honor our heritage and the generations that came before. I like most are actually honoring generations long removed from the "old country", in my case eight. It is my hope that we can state that in almost all cases the generations of the diaspora have done very well for themselves and I would hope we could report back to our cousins still residing in Alba the great and honorable influence we the diaspora have given to world at large but it may very well just be self serving conceit.

So I would like to ask my cousins (eight times removed) have we done as we should have or am I just full of it?

Feel free to answer as you please. According to the missus I should abandon the kilt and instead acquire myself some hip boots and a shovel. ;)

[Jock Scot]

Good question! Without delving into the maze of assorted reasons why your ancestors ended up where they did and where their ancestors are now. I take it we are talking about now? The problem is that the present generation may not be doing as well as their Great Grand father for example. We have a saying over here "Clogs to Clogs in three generations" in other words the first generation from a poor background works hard and does well for itself, the second generation loose the work ethic and squanders their resources instead of building on them , the third generation are back where the first generation started only they know what the previous generation "lost" for them!

So, baring all that in mind I certainly think that the opportunities outwith Scotland have been there to grasp and many have and in style. On the whole the diaspora have not had the feudal restrictions and thinking lurking around most corners as in Scotland, however the necessities of living in Scotland of the past bred hardy and innovative people which stood them in good stead when opportunities arose abroad.

Perfect the world is not and without doubt not everyone from Scotland of the past, or present, has done well in other parts of the world, for all sorts of reasons, but on the whole the opportunities, on a slightly more even handed way, have been there to grasp, and grasp them they have and I take my hat off to them.

[OC Richard]

We have a saying over here "Clogs to Clogs in three generations" in other words the first generation from a poor background works hard and does well for itself, the second generation loose the work ethic and squanders their resources instead of building on them , the third generation are back where the first generation started only they know what the previous generation "lost" for them!

Ha! That's a wonderful summation of a thing I've often observed.

For a time I taught at a High School in an affluent area. The joke was that the Faculty Parking Lot was full of old beat-up subcompacts while the Student Parking Lot was full of shiny new BMWs and Mercedes. Seemed that each kid got a brand-new $40,000 car as soon as they got their first Drivers' Licence.

Well, you've never seen such a bunch of lazy unmotivated do-nothing students in your life! Their parents had worked hard in school to get good grades and get medical or engineering or law degrees, and worked hard in their careers to be successful. But their kids had had everything handed to them their entire lives and thought that they could coast through school getting poor grades and Mommy and Daddy would make everything OK.

One kid's mother was a judge, who on numerous occasions had used her influence to keep her kid (a drug addict) out of trouble with the law. That kid was a do-nothing stoner who flunked all of his classes.

It was a common sight to see these wealthy, influential parents come for private meetings with the Principal to pressure him to let their kids pass in spite of poor performance.

Rant over.

Now about this Scottish Diaspora thing, I do find it amusing how many Americans get all puffed up over their supposed Scottishness or Irishness or what have you. I'm an English/Irish/Scottish mutt and I don't give it all much importance or thought. I play pipes; I must wear kilts to play them; and besides that I enjoy wearing Highland Dress and studying it for its own sake.

[vmac3205]

Jock,
There is a reason we turn to you for wisdom and clear thinking. Well said, and thank you.

[creagdhubh]

Jock,
There is a reason we turn to you for wisdom and clear thinking. Well said, and thank you.

Agreed.

[Peter Crowe]

I see alot of threads either asking for or gathering comments from native Scots on various topics such how they still wear the kilt or their opinion on the kilt outside it's natural home. I would like to ask a different question.
I like many approach the kilt as a means to recognise and honor our heritage and the generations that came before. I like most are actually honoring generations long removed from the "old country", in my case eight. It is my hope that we can state that in almost all cases the generations of the diaspora have done very well for themselves and I would hope we could report back to our cousins still residing in Alba the great and honorable influence we the diaspora have given to world at large but it may very well just be self serving conceit.

So I would like to ask my cousins (eight times removed) have we done as we should have or am I just full of it?

Feel free to answer as you please. According to the missus I should abandon the kilt and instead acquire myself some hip boots and a shovel. ;)

I fear you are opening a real can of worms here Warrior.

As a native Scot living in the USA I believe I can see both sides of this discussion, but believe it is predicated on whether you think blood lines (nature) are more important than environmental influences (nurture) or otherwise. I have never been able to come down definitively on either side of that debate, and believe that both have influences on how human beings are. I do know (from observation) and I apologise if it seems patently obvious that the Native Scots experience of environment and surrounding culture is very different to that of the Scottish-American. I cannot speak for other diaspora countries, having only visited Canada briefly on three occasions and having never been to Australia, New Zealand or South Africa.

I think that many members of the diaspora feel connected to their ancestral homeland, and want to honour their heritage (nature), however, they view that heritage through the prism of their experience (nurture). Therein lies the cause of confusion, misunderstanding and upset because the experience of the Native Scot (nurture) is often very different and even at odds with that of his diaspora cousin. Neither groups understanding of the Kilt or Scottishness is a question of morality or right and wrong .

As to pride by native Scots in the achievements of the diaspora, I suppose that is a question that can only be answered by individuals. For myself, the answer is that like any other group of human beings the diaspora contains a broad range of figures, many of whom were/are good people of integrity but equally many are people with whom I share little in common. I must be honest for those genuinely interested in Scotland and her culture I have a lot of time and respect. I accept that there are also those who try and combine both identities (even multiple ethnic heritage identities) kilted in ways that jar against the sensibilities with which I was brought up, but nevertheless are good honest people. Lastly there are the Brigadoon fantasist types who refuse to consider Scotland's real History and culture and make a mockery of them which does really irk me. However, there are some in Scotland (re: tartan tat shops) who are happy to deal in that coin too, because tartan, kilts, and phoney myths provide an easy way to make a few quid.

[RockyR]

I fear you are opening a real can of worms here Warrior.

As a native Scot living in the USA I believe I can see both sides of this discussion, but believe it is predicated on whether you think blood lines (nature) are more important than environmental influences (nurture) or otherwise. I have never been able to come down definitively on either side of that debate, and believe that both have influences on how human beings are. I do know (from observation) and I apologise if it seems patently obvious that the Native Scots experience of environment and surrounding culture is very different to that of the Scottish-American. I cannot speak for other diaspora countries, having only visited Canada briefly on three occasions and having never been to Australia, New Zealand or South Africa.

I think that many members of the diaspora feel connected to their ancestral homeland, and want to honour their heritage (nature), however, they view that heritage through the prism of their experience (nurture). Therein lies the cause of confusion, misunderstanding and upset because the experience of the Native Scot (nurture) is often very different and even at odds with that of his diaspora cousin. Neither groups understanding of the Kilt or Scottishness is a question of morality or right and wrong .

As to pride by native Scots in the achievements of the diaspora, I suppose that is a question that can only be answered by individuals. For myself, the answer is that like any other group of human beings the diaspora contains a broad range of figures, many of whom were/are good people of integrity but equally many are people with whom I share little in common. I must be honest for those genuinely interested in Scotland and her culture I have a lot of time and respect. I accept that there are also those who try and combine both identities (even multiple ethnic heritage identities) kilted in ways that jar against the sensibilities with which I was brought up, but nevertheless are good honest people. Lastly there are the Brigadoon fantasist types who refuse to consider Scotland's real History and culture and make a mockery of them which does really irk me. However, there are some in Scotland (re: tartan tat shops) who are happy to deal in that coin too, because tartan, kilts, and phoney myths provide an easy way to make a few quid.

Well said. I too believe there'e a balance between nature / nurture. We are not born "tabla rasa" (Blank Slate... drawing on my college Psychology classes for that one), but a mix of the 2. Studies in DNA in recent years have helped with the 'genetic' (nature) side of the argument, but there is a strong sense of who we are based on environment (nurture).

Scots living in Scotland have the advantage of being brought up surrounded by Scottish culture. MOST times (from my own observations of customers), 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 8th generation Americans (or Canadians, South Africans, Australians, etc) rely too heavily on the MYTH of Scottish culture (i.e. Braheart, Rob Roy and the stories that their grandpa told them) and not the culture itself. We're at a disadvantage of having to FIGURE OUT TRUE Scottish culture vs. being immersed in it. THAT is the reason why we get so many things 'wrong' according to our Scottish cousins. It's different from the way they were brought up being told it should be.

So where do we get the 'glasses' through which we view Scottish culture? Magazines, Movies, pop culture on one hand. Stories through generations of family members on another (and we all know Grandpa NEVER embellished ANY of his stories ). Yet another is from Retailers (yes, apparently I have 3 hands)... "if they SAY it's a kilt, it MUST be b/c they're selling it and they must know what they're talking about". "If they SAY that a PC is the only kilt jacket that should ever be worn, it must be b/c they're a retailer and must know what they're talking about".

Taking stories, movies and opinions for 'fact' is a VERY dangerous trap that I believe many non native Scots fall into. They use the tools / information at their disposal to form their view. The problem is, there may be MANY inconsistencies that they're basing their opinion on, which skews their opinion. When you don't have the correct info to start with, you get the wrong end result.

How do we fix that? Through travel to Scotland (which not everyone can afford), to immerse yourself in the culture. Through movies / magazines / media being more accurate (unlikely). Through Retailers being more HONEST about what they're selling (not just trying to turn a buck) and through ALL RETAILERS knowing what they're talking about (unlikely).

Lastly, is through direct contact with people of Scotland AND different cultures. Through learning how it's 'done' in other parts of the world. Through personal experiences greater than your own. Through ALLOWING FOR THE POSSIBILITY that your opinion MAY NOT be the only one.

Forums like Xmarks go a long way to educate the 'newbies'. In another thread, I mentioned how I try to correct statements up here (and on other forums I'm on) when I KNOW them to be inaccurate. Only through having facts can we learn... not mis-statements which perpetuate mis-understandings. I raise my glass to Xmarks and to those here who help to educate people in traditional Highland culture. I fully recognize that not everyone has the same opinion on every matter and that not all MUST have the same opinion. There's room in this forum for ALL types of kilts, so long as they're accurately and honestly described.

Sorry for the rant... I'm off my soapbox now.

[crash]

The first prime minister of Canada, Sir John A. MacDonald, was born in Scotland. By all accounts he was a drunkard among his many character flaws but he managed to unite/form a country and get a railroad built from one end of it to the other. No mean feat considering the size of this great country. Just one of many Scotts involved in our developement.

[Meggers]

I fear you are opening a real can of worms here Warrior.

As a native Scot living in the USA I believe I can see both sides of this discussion, but believe it is predicated on whether you think blood lines (nature) are more important than environmental influences (nurture) or otherwise. I have never been able to come down definitively on either side of that debate, and believe that both have influences on how human beings are. I do know (from observation) and I apologise if it seems patently obvious that the Native Scots experience of environment and surrounding culture is very different to that of the Scottish-American. I cannot speak for other diaspora countries, having only visited Canada briefly on three occasions and having never been to Australia, New Zealand or South Africa.

I think that many members of the diaspora feel connected to their ancestral homeland, and want to honour their heritage (nature), however, they view that heritage through the prism of their experience (nurture). Therein lies the cause of confusion, misunderstanding and upset because the experience of the Native Scot (nurture) is often very different and even at odds with that of his diaspora cousin. Neither groups understanding of the Kilt or Scottishness is a question of morality or right and wrong .

As to pride by native Scots in the achievements of the diaspora, I suppose that is a question that can only be answered by individuals. For myself, the answer is that like any other group of human beings the diaspora contains a broad range of figures, many of whom were/are good people of integrity but equally many are people with whom I share little in common. I must be honest for those genuinely interested in Scotland and her culture I have a lot of time and respect. I accept that there are also those who try and combine both identities (even multiple ethnic heritage identities) kilted in ways that jar against the sensibilities with which I was brought up, but nevertheless are good honest people. Lastly there are the Brigadoon fantasist types who refuse to consider Scotland's real History and culture and make a mockery of them which does really irk me. However, there are some in Scotland (re: tartan tat shops) who are happy to deal in that coin too, because tartan, kilts, and phoney myths provide an easy way to make a few quid.

I would have to say that I agree here.

My opinion on this is very simple. The diaspora is not one and the same with the native scots, however, we are connected. At the end of the day, I, for example, am an American with Scot and Irish heritage. I am only a few generations removed, I still have family alive who remember the first people of my family who came over, etc. but I am an American. I was raised in America, my cultural conditioning is American. End of story. I am an American with Scottish and Irish ancestory and I express the love for my motherland through honoring my heritage but that is it. I am not a Scot and I am not an Irishwoman. I am a Scot-American and an Irish-American.

There was a woman going through Druidic training through OBOD who explained a similar concept (ancient vs. modern Druidry) about ancestoral connections with modern day things. She said the ancestor is like a sea with the modern day versions as rivers that feed from the sea. We are not the same things, but we have the same source of love and inspiration. Scots and Scottish-Americans both love Scotland. We love Scottish culture, language, traditions, etc. But we, ourselves, are different beings.

Perhaps I am only speaking of my own flaw at this point, but I sometimes feel as though the Scot/Irish-American isn't given enough credit by Scot/Irish-Americans. It is almost as though some would rather fancy themselves as "a Scot" than simply undersatnd that they are not Scottish, but are Americans (or Canadian or whatever) with Scottish heritage. Scot Americans have an incredible history here in the States too. Their adventure didnt end when they crossed the sea. They left one home and then went to another to continue making a great and colorful history for us to be proud of. We can be proud of both, by right. We can be proud of our motherland because it is in our blood and history. We shouldnt, however, neglect the land of our new generations either. That would be unfair.

[James Hood]

As a 2nd generation American with German-Austrian-Dutch blood much greater in % than Scottish-English, this thread is being read and pondered upon without detailed comment.

Interesting however, while travel was done in, enjoyed and endearing, inside the United Kingdom...

...with all its heinous recent "national historical flaws"...

...Deutschland felt like home...

...says this owner of Lederhosen, keying this in a kilt with a German beer at hand.