For formal wear dirk and belt vs waistcoat

[Geoff Withnell]

Ok, I know this topic has been discussed, but I am asking for fresh advice. I'm not promising to follow it, but I am interested in the rabble's input. On November 10th, Michele and I will be attending a Marine Corps Birthday Ball. Dress is full on formal, ladies in long gowns, active duty personnel in Dress Blue or Mess Dress, etc. Lacking a PC or doublet, I will be in my black Argyle, white pleated shirt with studs and black bowtie, Leatherneck or (if Steve gets it finished and to me) Dress Blue kilt, formal sporran, red piper hose, highly shined black shoes. My indecision is this- I recently acquired a dress dirk, which of course would require a dirk belt to wear. I also have a black waistcoat matching the argyle, that I like the look of. I do not like waistcoats and belts worn together. Opinions?

[Jock Scot]

Ok from the other side of the pond, but over here the event and style of your attire would not warrant a dirk, you are in civilian attire after all, my advice is to leave it at home and would solve the belt problem too.

[Chas]

I agree with Jock. In the UK, I cannot think of an occasion when I would wear a dirk.

I do not like waistcoats and belts worn together.

If you are wearing a dirk then the belt is worn over the waistcoat. It becomes a feature. Looks sloppy to my mind, but that is how it is done.

Regards

Chas

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Geoff, at events of this sort I always ask myself "If I was in uniform, would I wear my sword?" If the answer is "no", then I leave the dirk at home.

[Geoff Withnell]

Geoff, at events of this sort I always ask myself "If I was in uniform, would I wear my sword?" If the answer is "no", then I leave the dirk at home.

Interesting. I didn't have my own sword, back in the day. Some that did, indeed do wear their swords. More among officers than NCOs like myself, but some NCOs do wear their swords. I am comfortable wearing a sword, as I spent two years in a Reserve Training Detachment, and we had the collateral duty of being the ceremonial unit for our area. So when Marine Color Guards were needed, parades, funerals, etc, we were tasked with the duty, and I frequently carried a sword as Color Guard commander. I like wearing a sword. I was in a saber drill team in college. But for a ball, unless you are part of the ceremony, you arrive with it, check it, and pick it up again when you leave. Another consideration is that, being under arms, I would have to remain covered, which would also be a pain.

[flyrod6057]

Interesting. I didn't have my own sword, back in the day. Some that did, indeed do wear their swords. More among officers than NCOs like myself, but some NCOs do wear their swords. I am comfortable wearing a sword, as I spent two years in a Reserve Training Detachment, and we had the collateral duty of being the ceremonial unit for our area. So when Marine Color Guards were needed, parades, funerals, etc, we were tasked with the duty, and I frequently carried a sword as Color Guard commander. I like wearing a sword. I was in a saber drill team in college. But for a ball, unless you are part of the ceremony, you arrive with it, check it, and pick it up again when you leave. Another consideration is that, being under arms, I would have to remain covered, which would also be a pain.

Something to consider: wearing the Marine NCO sword is properly reserved for someone who will be commanding troops. While all Marine NCOs "rate" the sword, only the guy out front of the formation should be wearing one. The only exception I know of is when the "staff" are to pass in review, they also wear swords.

Now...having said all that....

I agree with the previous posters that wearing the dirk isn't a great idea at the ball. Some overzealous Sergeant Major might decide it's something you shouldn't be wearing! More likely, no one will even notice. Still, unless you're sporting a regulation doublet (a nearly identical cut to a Marine dress blues coat) or the like, a dirk doesn't really fit the theme. Would you wear a dirk with a blazer?? Doubtful. I would personally forego the dirk. Just my two cents.

Have a blast!

Semper Fidelis,
Brad Flanagan
Gunnery Sergeant
USMC (Ret.)

[creagdhubh]

Interesting. I didn't have my own sword, back in the day. Some that did, indeed do wear their swords. More among officers than NCOs like myself, but some NCOs do wear their swords. I am comfortable wearing a sword, as I spent two years in a Reserve Training Detachment, and we had the collateral duty of being the ceremonial unit for our area. So when Marine Color Guards were needed, parades, funerals, etc, we were tasked with the duty, and I frequently carried a sword as Color Guard commander. I like wearing a sword. I was in a saber drill team in college. But for a ball, unless you are part of the ceremony, you arrive with it, check it, and pick it up again when you leave. Another consideration is that, being under arms, I would have to remain covered, which would also be a pain.

As a U.S. Marine NCO who has attended many a Marine Corps Ball (the majority at MCB Camp Lejeune, NC), I always wore my NCO sword with my dress blues, yet I was in uniform and was expected to by my CO (all NCO's, SNCO's and Officers typically wore their swords to the Marine Corps Ball). I agree with Chas, Jock, and Scott...leave the dirk and belt at home and opt for the waistcoat.

I too shall be celebrating our Corps' birthday on November 10 and will be wearing the following items of Highland dress: Black Regulation Doublet, Macpherson red 'modern' 3-button waistcoat, Macpherson red 'modern' kilt, Macpherson red 'modern' Argyll style hose, dark green flashes, sgian dubh, bar and buckle brogues, pine marten sporran, bib-front shirt with a fold over collar and french cuffs, and a self-tie, black bow tie. Pretty simple and straight-forward Highland evening attire.

Happy 237th Birthday, Marine!

Semper Fidelis!


Sergeant Kyle A. S. Macpherson, USMC (1999-2008)

[Tobus]

Ok from the other side of the pond, but over here the event and style of your attire would not warrant a dirk, you are in civilian attire after all, my advice is to leave it at home and would solve the belt problem too.

Maybe I'm reading more into it than you meant, but are you saying that a dirk is never warranted for civilian attire? Or just for this event where he will be in civilian attire amongst military uniforms?

Given that this is a military ball and he will be in civilian attire, I would tend to agree that a dirk might be a tad out of place, or look affected. Were it a different (i.e. specific to Highland attire) event, like a Burns supper perhaps, the dirk would be more appropriate.

In any case, I wouldn't think that wearing a waistcoat, with a dirk belt over it and a dirk hanging from it, under an Argyll jacket, would be ideal. It's certainly been done before, but seems like a less-than-ideal way to wear a dirk. It may end up being partially covered by the jacket. A dirk belt over a doublet seems like the best option, although it doesn't sound like an option in this case.

[Jock Scot]

[QUOTE=Tobus;1132624]Maybe I'm reading more into it than you meant, but are you saying that a dirk is never warranted for civilian attire? Or just for this event where he will be in civilian attire amongst military uniforms?

Given that this is a military ball and he will be in civilian attire, I would tend to agree that a dirk might be a tad out of place, or look affected. Were it a different (i.e. specific to Highland attire) event, like a Burns supper perhaps, the dirk would be more appropriate.[QUOTE]

Indeed you are reading more into what I have suggested.

As a general rule, as a civilian at military events you go as a civilian(decorations may,or, may not be worn depending on your host and of course the event)-----even though you may well be a retired military man-------and normally for black tie events the dirk is gilding the lilly even at a Burns night, unless of course, you happen to be giving the address. In that circumstance, I would advise "accidentally forgetting" your own dirk and use someone else's! Be warned, haggis juices, wedding cakes, etc., are absolute murder on blades unless they are scrupulously cleaned , almost immediately, by those who know about these things.