Irish Ancestry tartans

**Mike_Oettle** · 2nd April 13, 10:32 AM

Going through the latest registrations from the Scottish Register of Tartans, I see that Rocky Roeger has brought out four for people with Irish ancestry.
Not sure why he felt it necessary to add to the already confusing number of Irish district tartans.
I feel Ulster Red (or any other of the Ulster colour combinations) perfectly adequate for people of Ulster descent, and there are existing tartans for Leinster, Munster and Connaught (several there!).
Perhaps Rocky would like to respond and give his reasons, not only for producing the “Ancestry” series, but also for the colour choices he has made.
Regards,
Mike

**RockyR** · 2nd April 13, 10:54 AM

Mike,

We've been asked by a few customers for the Munster, Leinster and Connaught tartans before to be made into a kilt (it's been mentioned up here a few times as well). Of the 4 Irish Provinces, only Ulster is stocked by any of the mills in 13 or 16 oz cloth. Lochcarron designed their own Leinster / Connaught / Munster tartans several years ago and stocks them in 11 oz only.

A little history... back in December of 2012, USA Kilts purchased the copyright on the Irish County Crest tartans (as well as Irish American and Ireland's National tartans) from Gaelic Themes (aka Viking Technologies). Marton Mills is the only mill to weave those tartans, having had Gaelic Themes' permission in the past and now having ours with the change in copyright ownership. We had discussed with with Marton Mills the Provinces and the fact that no one weaves them in 13 or 16 oz. Since Lochcarron designed the 3 tartans for Leinster / Connaught / Munster, we thought it impolite / improper to take their designs to a different mill to be woven.

We set about creating 4 (including Ulster) NEW Irish Province tartans based on the colors used in their crests / flag:

As the Scottish Tartan Register gave us reasons why we could not use the term "crest" (which I will admit was a bit confusing since all of the Irish County CREST tartans use the word "crest" in the name and we were adding these 4 to that collection, but that's neither here nor there), we were asked to choose another name. The register suggested "Pride of _____", but that's been done time and time again, so we selected another name: "______ Ancestry Tartan". All we have done is taken the color ques from each province's crest and used them as the basis for the colors in the tartans. We've also secured a mill which will weave them in 16 oz and hold them as stock tartans which any company can order.

**seanachie** · 4th April 13, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by RockyR

Mike,

As the Scottish Tartan Register gave us reasons why we could not use the term "crest" (which I will admit was a bit confusing since all of the Irish County CREST tartans use the word "crest" in the name and we were adding these 4 to that collection, but that's neither here nor there), we were asked to choose another name. The register suggested "Pride of _____", but that's been done time and time again, so we selected another name: "______ Ancestry Tartan". All we have done is taken the color ques from each province's crest and used them as the basis for the colors in the tartans. We've also secured a mill which will weave them in 16 oz and hold them as stock tartans which any company can order.

This comment made me think, too, the Registry would do well to have a designation other than Fashion tartan for these. Perhaps just me but I draw a negative from that. Heritage, one that came right to the front of my mind, or something else would seem a better fit to me.

**M. A. C. Newsome** · 5th April 13, 04:41 AM

Originally Posted by seanachie

This comment made me think, too, the Registry would do well to have a designation other than Fashion tartan for these. Perhaps just me but I draw a negative from that. Heritage, one that came right to the front of my mind, or something else would seem a better fit to me.

'Fashion tartan' is a term that has been used for quite a while (the National Register did not invent it) to mean any tartan that was designed and produced for the trade, but does not have any formal authority behind it. It is not meant to be derogatory, but simply to distinguish these tartans from those that have the formal approval of whatever/whomever the appropriate authority might be (clan chief, city council, CEO, state legislature, club president, etc.).

**RockyR** · 5th April 13, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by M. A. C. Newsome

'Fashion tartan' is a term that has been used for quite a while (the National Register did not invent it) to mean any tartan that was designed and produced for the trade, but does not have any formal authority behind it. It is not meant to be derogatory, but simply to distinguish these tartans from those that have the formal approval of whatever/whomever the appropriate authority might be (clan chief, city council, CEO, state legislature, club president, etc.).

Matt... this is an issue I've taken issue with (had long discussions with Brian Wilton about it). The problem, in MY MIND is that the 'rules' are not applied evenly. Example: The House of Edgar Irish County range came out in 1995. They were designated as district tartans. When the County Crest range came out in 2003, they were not even acknowledged at first. Only later were they acknowledged and then put in as "fashion" tartans. Neither set is official. Neither of them have approval from any governing body. Why is 1 listed as District and the other as Fashion?

That is simply 1 example, but there are dozens I can site. You're correct in that "fashion tartan" isn't meant to have a negative connotation and that it has existed for quite some time.

Originally Posted by OC Richard

I just went on Rocky's site and I don't see those under "Irish tartans" or under "exclusive tartans". Did I just miss them?

SNIP

Those "county crest" tartans are generally mediocre designs in my opinion. Of course the designers were hamstrung by having to use colour combinations which are in most cases not ideal for designing attractive tartans. It's the Allan Brothers "tartan as heraldry" thing all over again. (It was perhaps their most fundamental misunderstanding of tartan design, and one which we in the 21st century seem determined to perpetuate.) But even given the rather garish colours, better design, balance, etc might have been employed.

Those tartans aren't listed on our site (nor will they be) for 2 reasons... 1) they're not woven yet & 2) they're going to be stock tartans anyone can order, so they're not our exclusive designs (though we did design them). Any kiltmaker will be able to order them.

Keep an eye on the Irish County Crest range over the next year. I agree that many of the colors originally used were a bit garish and many of them are being 'toned down' over the next year.

**seanachie** · 5th April 13, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by RockyR

Matt... this is an issue I've taken issue with (had long discussions with Brian Wilton about it). The problem, in MY MIND is that the 'rules' are not applied evenly. Example: The House of Edgar Irish County range came out in 1995. They were designated as district tartans. When the County Crest range came out in 2003, they were not even acknowledged at first. Only later were they acknowledged and then put in as "fashion" tartans. Neither set is official. Neither of them have approval from any governing body. Why is 1 listed as District and the other as Fashion?

That is simply 1 example, but there are dozens I can site. You're correct in that "fashion tartan" isn't meant to have a negative connotation and that it has existed for quite some time.
.

Rocky, you read my thoughts, that is what I was talking about. And to the earlier comment that Fashion was not meant to be pejorative I understand that. I just think there is a negative connotation and a more applicable and better suited name would be better.

**artificer** · 4th May 13, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by RockyR

Those tartans aren't listed on our site (nor will they be) for 2 reasons... 1) they're not woven yet & 2) they're going to be stock tartans anyone can order, so they're not our exclusive designs (though we did design them). Any kiltmaker will be able to order them.

Keep an eye on the Irish County Crest range over the next year. I agree that many of the colors originally used were a bit garish and many of them are being 'toned down' over the next year.

This is exciting news, Rocky!

My wife's family comes from Longford Co., but the tartan as-is is very "bright",

Click image for larger version.

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Is the below the new toned down version?(found with the tartan ferrett) If so, it might be just the ticket to get me into a new kilt and her into a sash.

Now I'm off to start hoarding pennies

ith:

**OC Richard** · 5th April 13, 04:44 AM

I just went on Rocky's site and I don't see those under "Irish tartans" or under "exclusive tartans". Did I just miss them?

In general, purely as works of the tartan-inventors art, I like the House Of Edgar "Irish" tartans. Evidently freed from any preconceived constraints and guided purely by aesthetics, they designed several lovely and striking tartans.

Those "county crest" tartans are generally mediocre designs in my opinion. Of course the designers were hamstrung by having to use colour combinations which are in most cases not ideal for designing attractive tartans. It's the Allan Brothers "tartan as heraldry" thing all over again. (It was perhaps their most fundamental misunderstanding of tartan design, and one which we in the 21st century seem determined to perpetuate.) But even given the rather garish colours, better design, balance, etc might have been employed.

It's difficult, I think, when not sitting at a loom (as the 18th century tartan designers did), but rather sitting at a drawing table (as the Allen Brothers did), or at a computer (as we mostly do today), to keep in mind the fundamental nature of tartan as cloth and not let the designs feel diagrammatic or graphic.

**denmcdough** · 4th May 13, 05:34 AM

It's funny how all these Irish Tartans came about. I assume it was a ploy by the Scottish mills to drum up new business, and it worked with the diaspora. Hmm, wonder why it never caught on in Ireland?

Anyway, I do not particularly like the Irish Crest Tartans, but I do like HOE's county ones. In fact, I have a tie in the County Waterford and it's very dashing. I get positive comments on it all the time, so I'm thinking of a kilt in it, also. Wondering if any of the rabble has a kilt in Waterford???

**O'Searcaigh** · 2nd April 13, 10:59 AM

There is also a tartan for County Tyrone -- of which I had a kilt made not so long ago. Why? 'cause Tyrone is the county of origin for my family name and I really really liked the colors/sett. I'm not sure why the relatively few "Irish district tartans" should be regarded as "confusing," especially when compared to the hundreds of "Scottish" tartans for various clans, districts, families and in multiple (hunting, weathered, dress....) presentations. I could only find the "Irish Heritage" tartan on the Registry. What are the other three Rocky? I'd love to see them!!!