PCE Stuart v Stewart CE

[OC Richard]

I'm checking on the various mills which produce PCE Stewart/Stuart tartan.

Interestingly, DC Dalgliesh has two heavyweight stock tartans

Prince Charles Edward Stuart 591288
Stewart Charles Edward 531166

Only the latter is illustrated on their site. It seems to resemble the familiar PCE Stewart tartan. So what is 591288?

House of Edgar offers "Pr Charles Edward Stuart" in medium weight 864 and heavy weight 1633.

Lochcarron only lists Prince Charles Edward Stewart in Reiver 10oz. I have a kilt made up in it here (EDIT: the kilt is in 13oz) the sett size is just under 6" and the selvedge shows the blue stripe which borders the red empty square.

I would be very interested if anyone could post photos of kilts made up in any or all of these versions, and/or the sett size and what part of the sett is at the selvedge.

Thanks! Richard

[mookien]

Richard: At the Dalgliesh website I found a Prince Charles Edward Stuart under the "Material ID" 463791 at

http://www.dcdalgliesh.co.uk/tartan_found.rpy?id=463791

Is that not the one in which you have an interest?

John

[figheadair]

Richard: At the Dalgliesh website I found a Prince Charles Edward Stuart under the "Material ID" 463791 at

http://www.dcdalgliesh.co.uk/tartan_found.rpy?id=463791

Is that not the one in which you have an interest?

John

I don't know what this one is but it's not any Stuart/stewart that I've ever seen. Time for a bit of investigation.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I don't know what this one is but it's not any Stuart/stewart that I've ever seen. Time for a bit of investigation.

I occasionally notice some goofiness in the tartans illustrated on Dalgliesh's site. I think when the software that included all the tartan information was added to the site, some glitches must have crept in. I've had to email them with multiple corrections.

[OC Richard]

Richard: At the Dalgliesh website I found a Prince Charles Edward Stuart under the "Material ID" 463791 at

http://www.dcdalgliesh.co.uk/tartan_found.rpy?id=463791

Is that not the one in which you have an interest?

John

That's interesting but the one I'm looking for is the same as the normal red Royal Stewart, but has the open red squares reduced to red stripes (#240 in The Setts of the Scottish Tartans).

A guy here has 8 yards of PCE Stewart heavyweight from Dalgliesh coming; it's supposedly shipped.

We have samples in mediumweight and heavyweight from Edgar coming too.

I'll give an update when these things arrive.

Any kilt photos? Thanks!

[figheadair]

That's interesting but the one I'm looking for is the same as the normal red Royal Stewart, but has the open red squares reduced to red stripes (#240 in The Setts of the Scottish Tartans).

Any kilt photos? Thanks!

I've posted this before but as a reminder, here's an early kilt in Wilsons' Prince Charles Edward c1830.



Note the traditionally setting where each Lt Blue stripe is roughly half the width of the central red.

[OC Richard]

I've posted this before but as a reminder, here's an early kilt in Wilsons' Prince Charles Edward c1830.



Note the traditionally setting where each Lt Blue stripe is roughly half the width of the central red.

Very interesting, thanks for posting that! #240 in Setts has the blue a bit narrower than that, and the Lochcarron 13oz kilt I have has those stripes narrower still, reduced practically to lines.

I think the tartan looks better with those blue stripes wider.

Since it's a tartan that the Prince himself supposedly wore I'm guessing that it's based on a relic somewhere? And is there a photo of this relic available?

BTW I like the pleats in that kilt, the "lawnchair effect" or "pleating to the block" as I've heard it called.

[figheadair]

The reply form Dalgliesh was interesting and perhaps reflects the recent change of staff Please refer to the tartan register for any info on this fabric. I'm afraid I really am of no use to answer your questions.

Further investigation found it in the STA Db as #2382 where it is labelled Bonnie Prince Charlie (Fashion). The accompanying note says of it A sample of this tartan was sent to the Lord Lyon by the Hudson Bay Company of Canada who had received it labelled 'Bonny Prince Charlie'. Assumed to be Fashion.

[figheadair]

Since it's a tartan that the Prince himself supposedly wore I'm guessing that it's based on a relic somewhere? And is there a photo of this relic available?

The tartan comes from a pair of mid-C18th Trews said to have been worn by PCE that are/were on display in the West Highland Museum, Fort William. The only photo I know of is, if memory serves, in Telfer Dunbar's History of Highland Dress[/I]. Unfortunately I don't own a copy but will check in the STA Library tomorrow.

I saw the original pair some years ago but unfortunately didn’t have a camera with me. They are small by modern standards and would probably fit someone of slight build and about 5' 6" tall. I think PCE was taller and the alleged association will no doubt be based on family tradition without any direct evidence. In the world of old tartans there are a number of such examples. Often it's a case of old + romantic association = fact which it obviously doesn't. Regardless of who worn the originals the tartan is beautiful, the sett is small and the light blue is much paler that the Wilson examples posted.

The museum also has an old plaid (detail below) which again is said to have belonged to/was worn by PCE but is what we would now call Royal Stewart. Again, the light blue is very pale which was the case with blue used as a highlight in C18th tartans. I cannot think of one example where the modern mid-royal blue is used.

[mookien]

That's interesting but the one I'm looking for is the same as the normal red Royal Stewart, but has the open red squares reduced to red stripes (#240 in The Setts of the Scottish Tartans). ...

Perhaps the PCE Stuart on the Dagliesh web site to which I referred is one of those "glitch" tartans to which Matt referred.

Unless I am missing something, it may be necessary to map the "Material ID" (463791, presumably a Dalgliesh proprietary/internal number) back to an STA or STWR number. Barring that, it would seem impossible to determine the origin of the tartan, beyond simply asking the good folks at Dalgliesh something like, "Where in the heck did that tartan come from?!".

In any case good luck on your quest for the desired PCE Stuart tartan.