Looking for the arms of Graham Menteith

[anguilla1980]

I have attached the largest most detailed image I can seem to find of the arms of Graham Menteith. It seems super easy to find the arms of Graham Montrose compared to Menteith lol, even on the clan Graham society's web site.

Does anyone happen to have a larger, better detailed version? I can't even make out the words although I know it says "Right and Reason".

Thanks!

Alex

[Downunder Kilt]

I cannot directly help you with a picture, but have found a book, which includes a couple of hundred pages on the 8 Graham Earls of Menteith.
It maybe of some help to you. Cheers
https://archive.org/details/redbookofmentev100fras

[anguilla1980]

That certainly helps very much, thank you! My genealogy goes Graham Esk, Netherby < Graham Menteith < Stewart < etc. on back, and I still have allot to learn!

For nearly a century it was a misconception in my family that we were directly descended from Graham Claverhouse (John Graham, Viscount Dundee) but after my father died I did some research and found out they were just cousins and I only share a 19th great grandmother with them.

After a quick read online and it looks like the line of the Earls of Menteith died out as none of the 8th Earls children from his 3rd marriage ever had children. Looks like my line from Malise Graham, 1st Earl Menteith (my 17th great grandfather) is the only one left.

My 8th great grandfather, Sir George Graham "of Netherby 2nd Baronet of Esk", had a son Henry who immigrated to America before dying in 1684 in Hartford, Connecticut. That's where my family picks up in America.

Ha, wonder what it takes to lay claim to a vacant Earldom lol! I have one thing none of my American cousins have which is I'm a citizen of the U.K. by birth so I imagine I'm one of the few who could even claim it. Oh it's fun to dream, not that anything is left of the estates but the title could be cool.

[Hawk]

This is an interesting thread....keep us updated as to your research......

Hawk

[MacEanruig]

Perhaps, you may have a claim. You have nothing lose.

[anguilla1980]

Well I can't even seem to find online what the requirements would be, genealogically speaking, for such a claim. Nor can I find how to even initiate and proceed with a claim. I'm not sure if I would need a sponsor (like the current Duke of Montrose, the current Clan Graham chief), or what the fees and legal proceedings would even shape up to be. Then I would be worried about the political windfall of such a claim (would the Duke completely frown upon such a thing?). Heck even for that matter, another descendant standing up and countering my claim it for himself. I could just see all kinds of things like that coming out of the wood work. Not to mention that starting with the 7th Earl of Menteith they were also made the Earl of Airth, do I go after that as well to properly have both titles? It all seems overwhelmingly difficult and ridiculously selfish of such an endevour to even embark upon on the face of it. Lastly there is no small matter of how the peerage was phased out in the first place when the 8th Earl died......

"The end of Menteith and Airth:

His creditors compelled him to take the earldom, and in 1670, they enforced their claims. In about 1679, the Earl of Airth entered into an agreement with the Marquess of Montrose, whereby the Earldom of Menteith was to be granted to him provided that he should marry Helen or Elanor Graham, the Earl's cousins.

The Marquess of Montrose chose not to marry one of the Earl's cousins, and instead gained the right to the earldom through Charles II, and this transfer all but extinguished the Earldom of Menteith. He divorced his wife Anna in 1685, who accused him of bigamy and adultery.[3] Although he had been dispossessed of the majority of rights to earldom over Menteith, William Graham continued as the Earl of Airth until his death in 1694, and he died without leaving any issue."

...and then you have this fellow who just misappropriated the title later on: "The title of Earl of Menteith was later assumed in 1744, by a William Graham, who was the great-grandson of Elizabeth Graham, the Earl's sister." Who's to say that he may not have descendants alive today, and if he did, I would think they have a better claim than I do. I'd think my claim would only even have a chance if that entire line died out, then would it it revert back to my line from the 1st Earl?

Bottom line, I would like to just keep it simple for now. Learn what I can doing research, find out if the Clan genealogist knows about anyone from that line still being alive, etc.

If anything I would be interested in a matriculation of arms, which seems a simpler process since as mentioned I am a U.K. citizen by birth which is one of the requirements listed on the Lord Lyon's web site. I don't mind the cost of £1,547, it seems rather trivial considering the scheme of things such as family history.

[Joseph McMillan]

After a quick read online and it looks like the line of the Earls of Menteith died out as none of the 8th Earls children from his 3rd marriage ever had children. Looks like my line from Malise Graham, 1st Earl Menteith (my 17th great grandfather) is the only one left.

Be that as it may, descent from anyone earlier than William, 7th Earl of Menteith and 1st Earl of Airth, is irrelevant to a current claim. William resigned the ancient earldom and was reinvested by a new charter of King Charles I (1644), succession to which was limited to William's heirs-male. The 7th earl had only one son who left issue (John, Lord Kinpoint), who had only one son, William (8th earl), who had no legitimate issue. The 1644 peerage became extinct at that point.

There were claims put forth in the 19th century to the old peerage of which Malise was the first holder, but the Committee on Privileges of the House of Lords declined to recognize either of the claimants. Source of all the foregoing is Balfour Paul's Scots Peerage.

My 8th great grandfather, Sir George Graham "of Netherby 2nd Baronet of Esk", had a son Henry who immigrated to America before dying in 1684 in Hartford, Connecticut. That's where my family picks up in America.

Ha, wonder what it takes to lay claim to a vacant Earldom lol! I have one thing none of my American cousins have which is I'm a citizen of the U.K. by birth so I imagine I'm one of the few who could even claim it. Oh it's fun to dream, not that anything is left of the estates but the title could be cool.

Being a citizen of the UK, by birth or otherwise, doesn't give you any better claim than anyone else. It's purely a matter of genealogy. You don't say whether your Graham descent is entirely in the male line or not, but in any case, since the claimant to the Graham of Esk baronetcy was not among the parties disputing the Menteith succession before the House of Lords, it seems unlikely that descent through the Esk baronets would put you in the running for the peerage.

[anguilla1980]

Great info, thanks!!!!!