A thesis of sorts

[TheBlueCow]

There is often on here discussion about what is under the kilt, what used to be under the kilt, and many many variants of such questions.

Ultimately, is it probable, or at least analogous to the 'bra burning' of yesteryear? I am to young to know of the realities of the bra burnings, but I am still left wondering if perhaps deep down the 'question' is just part of a cycle that comes and goes. IS there a large difference between a woman refusing to wear a bra and a man in a kilt not wearing anything underneath (or more accurately, both having the choice and the option to choose.)


I am interested to see what the folks of the earlier generation think.

Since the bra burning idea was a metaphor for women's right of choice and freeing themselves from the constrictions of society, I don't really think it is analogous to men not wearing underwear under their kilts (or pants, for that matter). However, I would say men wearing kilts is possibly analogous, as it is symbolizing men's right of choice/freedom from society's constrictions. In today's world, men are simply expected to wear pants, and skirts are thought of as feminine garments - so when a guy wears a kilt, while there are people that do like and even encourage it, there are also an amount of people that discourage it and might even view it as a sin or something truly wrong for a man to wear.

There is a Men's Rights movement (that has a lot to do with the biased custody laws, among other things) which seems to be growing. I stumbled onto the men's rights movement after my brother got royally screwed over by his wife (now ex-wife!). I think that men wearing kilts, being kind of a physical comfort thing as much as a freedom of choice and freedom from society's restrictions kind of thing, would be the same for the men's rights movement as not wearing a bra was for the women's rights movement.

[Bugbear]

Deleted

[Riverkilt]

Must have just been me. Ran with some very powerful business women from the mid 1960's all the way through to 1980 when I went to work for Honeywell. I remember having to sort of readjust to working for men when I hired on with Honeywell...and then it turned out that Honeywell had some strong women in management too.

Can only speak for my own experience.

Still think the original point has enough merit to be explored were someone to write a thesis.

An old girlfriend - a former college professor and now university president - and I used to discuss those same times along the same lines. Learned from that there's no agreement to be reached between the sexes.

But thesis material. Yes.

Ron

[O'Callaghan]

Ron:

However, in the 1960's take a look at how many women were actually enrolled in medical school and law school. How many had MBA's and not be relegated to the role of secretary. How many women CEO's were there at the time?

The idea of systematically relegating female college graduates to the typing pool was something I saw in American films of the period, and which shocked me at the time, because it wouldn't have happened in England. Maybe the films were quite a bit older, because it took quite a long while for a US film to get to be on TV in England back then, but I don't think we ever did that. I'm sure we had our own barriers to equality, but AFAIK that was never one of them. Maybe someone older can prove me wrong? (Although I'm on the wrong side of 50)

[Phil]

It is fascinating how often this subject comes up although this time someone has worked a women's lib angle into the discussion. Underwear (or intimate apparel as it is coyly referred to in America) is a fairly recent innovation for women's clothing as it only appeared in the 19th century although men had worn underpants prior to this. As to going "regimental", while this seems to appeal to certain individuals, from a purely practical point of view the cost and inconvenience of frequent dry-cleaning in order to maintain an acceptable standard of hygiene would surely weigh heavily against it.

[Geoff Withnell]

Some of the same, some of the different.

...But that liberation ran deeper in society and changed a lot more----women in law schools, medical schools, top flight business positions instead of court room stenographers and nurses and secretaries fetching coffee for the good ole boys network....

Minor off topic rant - Nurses are NOT a doctor's lackey or servant, but licensed professional in a DIFFERENT profession, with different requirements, and often as well educated as the doctors they work with. Grouping nurses with other largely female dominated jobs is part of the problem that the liberation should have been changing.

Sorry, I am married to an RN, and her education is equal to mine, she supervises a larger team of licensed professionals, has HUGE responsibililies, making literal life and death decisions day in and day out - and makes about 2/3s of what I do. And gets asked why she didn't become a doctor. Because she wanted to do NURSING, not DOCTORING.

Here endth the rant.

Geoff Withnell

[ForresterModern]

Geoff
I think we are actually on the same side of the argument without realizing it. I am a doctor, a pediatrician and radiologist and my department's head, my mother was a nurse, my sister is a nurse, I worked for several years as an orderly, volunteer or other caretaker in various hospitals before I became a doctor. I know just exactly what being a nurse is all about and how important a profession it is, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for the nursing profession, and those I work with would undoubtedly tell you that I am a regular Joe, not like most doctors in relating to those other medical professionals I work with.

My mother was valedictorian of her high school class at age 17, graduating a full year ahead of her original class, having been bumped ahead a year because of her intelligence. She went on to nursing school in the late 40's becasue that was pretty much all that was available to her at the time, and worked as a nurse well into her 60's. BUt I have no doubt had she had the opportunity and support she would rather have gone to medical school and become a doctor---there is no doubt she had the chops for it. All that changed in the 60's and 70's with the womens liberation movement and things are entirely different today than ever before. Nursing is a noble profession and one to take great pride in, and if your wife chose that for her career I salute her dedication and sacrifice for the wellbeing of others around her.

My original comment which you quoted was intended to show how prior to womens lib women were glass-ceilinged across the board from even trying to attain certian positions of greater power and control in the world, stopped from being equals to thier male counterparts simply because of their sex. All that changed, not overnight but over the last few decades since womens lib lit the fuse. It is simply a matter of equal opportunity to make whatever choice a person, man or woman, wants to choose. Your wife chose to be a nurse, and I commend her for her choice and duty in a caring profession. I hope you understand that my comments were in no way meant to denigrate those who chose that profession for their life's dedication.

But I will stand by my original comments as stated and in the context that they were stated as correct and appropriate and in no way denigrating to you or your wife. I am sorry that you misconstrued my comments as being in any way demeaning to the profession of nursing or your wife personally.

Jeffrey Foster, MD
Univ of Cincinnati College of Medicine, Class of 1984

[Geoff Withnell]

Jeff,
I did not intend to imply (altho I can see upon re-reading my post that I did) that YOU held these opinions. It's just sort of a hot button for me. You are a gentleman and a scholar (even if you do spell your name wrong, GRIN). BTW, Michele is a University of Cincinnati grad as well.

Geoff Withnell

[Bigkahuna]

Like we said in the 60s, It's Freedom Man!!!

[ForresterModern]

Jeff,
I did not intend to imply (altho I can see upon re-reading my post that I did) that YOU held these opinions. It's just sort of a hot button for me. You are a gentleman and a scholar (even if you do spell your name wrong, GRIN). BTW, Michele is a University of Cincinnati grad as well.

Geoff Withnell

Geoff,

I think this is a case of we agree to agree, and understand one another's "hot button issues". I am sorry if something I wrote pressed yours as it was not intentional. I sometimes say or write something with one intent not realizing how it could be construed without my personal vocal tone, intonation, and body language present to help deliver my intended message, and I think this is what happened. I hope no offence taken, as none is felt from this end.

Blame my parents for my name spelling (and my middle name too---LINN). For a while as a kid I toyed with Geoffrey but was shown my birth certificate too many times and reverted to the spelling I am left with.

Heading back to UC for my 25th med school reunion this weekend---should be fun to see old friends.

Regards,

Jeff