Difficulty of Matriculating Arms?

[davidlpope]

Has anyone here in the US gone through the process of matriculating arms with the Lord Lyon? Does it pose an impediment if one's ancestors emigrated from Scotland long ago (prior to the Revolution)? Must required descent from one bearing Scottish arms be in one's surname descent?

I'm aware of several resources on the web, as well as the website of the Lord Lyon, but was hoping that someone here might have first-hand experience.

Cordially,

David

[MacLowlife]

Not that it stopped me before, but I have no experience in this. My first guess would be that you need to find the last armiger, then trace a direct line between him and yourself. That line would probably be subject to primogeniture, i.e., you would only be able to inherit and claim if no one with a superior claim is alive. I would next imagine that you will have to submit your pedigree for verification and inspection by some approved genealogist, though the Lord Lyon may take care of this.

If by happy chance, you are the eldest son of the eldest son, etc., and you can readily document this, it might not be too difficult.

Surely Rathdown can help us here.

Good luck

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Has anyone here in the US gone through the process of matriculating arms with the Lord Lyon? Does it pose an impediment if one's ancestors emigrated from Scotland long ago (prior to the Revolution)? Must required descent from one bearing Scottish arms be in one's surname descent?

I'm aware of several resources on the web, as well as the website of the Lord Lyon, but was hoping that someone here might have first-hand experience.

Cordially,

David

Generally, those seeking arms (who live outside of Scotland) must show a clear line of descent from their last-born Scottish ancestor. As far as I am aware, it is not possible to obtain a grant of arms based on descent from a female ancestor (this is because arms descend with the name and it is unlikely that the petitioner would have the same surname as the ancestor). The mere use of a "Scottish" surname is not enough to qualify for a grant.

For persons of probable Scottish ancestry, but who do not satisfy the stringent requirements of the Lord Lyon, the most viable option is to apply for a grant of Arms from the South African Bureau of Heraldry, in Pretoria, RSA. Once these arms are granted the status of the armiger is the same as that as any other armiger insofar as the use and display of the arms and any heraldic additaments is concerned.

I hope that answers your question.

[davidlpope]

Generally, those seeking arms (who live outside of Scotland) must show a clear line of descent from their last-born Scottish ancestor. As far as I am aware, it is not possible to obtain a grant of arms based on descent from a female ancestor (this is because arms descend with the name and it is unlikely that the petitioner would have the same surname as the ancestor). The mere use of a "Scottish" surname is not enough to qualify for a grant.

For persons of probable Scottish ancestry, but who do not satisfy the stringent requirements of the Lord Lyon, the most viable option is to apply for a grant of Arms from the South African Bureau of Heraldry, in Pretoria, RSA. Once these arms are granted the status of the armiger is the same as that as any other armiger insofar as the use and display of the arms and any heraldic additaments is concerned.

I hope that answers your question.

Scott,

Thanks for your knowledge. I appreciate it.

David

[macwilkin]

Suggestion: this thread really needs to be in the heraldry & tartans section.

T.

[saharris]

As far as I am aware, it is not possible to obtain a grant of arms based on descent from a female ancestor…

I do not believe that this is true. Of course, if you are trying to prove yourself the heir to arms already granted – then you will need to prove yourself the eldest son of the eldest son, et cetera. However, if you are registering new arms through the Lord Lyon, then you just need to prove legitimate descent from a subject of the Scottish crown. I believe that US General Colin Powell was granted arms by Lord Lyon through his mother’s family who were of Scottish ancestry when he was appointed a Knight Commander of the Order of the Bath (KCB).

[EagleJCS]

A few years ago, I was told by a member of the Society of Scottish Armigers that, for US citizens, you only need to show descent from someone who was a subject of The Crown (the King/Queen) prior to Sept 3, 1783 (the date the Treaty of Paris was signed ending the Revolutionary War). This person didn't necessarily have to be Scottish, just "a subject of the crown", but I think that's the general presumption. Lord Lyon would then grant arms in honor of this person. If your surname is from one of the clans (in my case Scott), the arms would be similar to the clan chief's, with some emblem/device to note it is a different branch of the family name. It is suggested that a large group of family members (sibling and cousins) share the cost of this grant, since they may all use this as the basis for their own grants.

Once the grant in honor of this person takes place, THEN arms may be matriculated from them with the appropriate differencing per the rules of heraldry. Lord Lyon (or an officer of his court) will work with you for any additional/unusual/personal elements you may wish to have. You can even change the motto if you so desire.

[sp00ky]

I was under the impression that in order to be granted arms, you must show direct descent from a person previously granted arms.

Is this correct, or if you can show direct descent from someone born in Scotland, for example my grand-father born in Scotland 1918, you can apply for arms if you are willing to go through the preocess and expense?

Scott

[McMurdo]

Thread moved to heraldry & tartans section.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

A few years ago, I was told by a member of the Society of Scottish Armigers that, for US citizens, you only need to show descent from someone who was a subject of The Crown (the King/Queen) prior to Sept 3, 1783 (the date the Treaty of Paris was signed ending the Revolutionary War). This person didn't necessarily have to be Scottish, just "a subject of the crown", but I think that's the general presumption.

I think the person you spoke to may have confused the general attitude of the College of Arms in London with the practice of the Lyon Court. The court of the Lord Lyon is generally pleased to grant arms to virtuous and well deserving persons born in Scotland, normally resident in Scotland, and those of Scottish descent residing elsewhere.

Born is Scotland is pretty self-explanatory; normally resident means just that-- a university student or a company executive (not a Crown subject) living in Scotland would be qualified to seek out a grant of arms from the Lord Lyon. As far as the Scottish diaspora is concerned let's say your great-great-grandfather was born in Dundee, Scotland, in 1856. Provided you could prove your descent (birth certificates, etc.) you would be entitled to apply for arms in Scotland, and all things being equal the Lord Lyon would be willing to grant them.

Descent through the female line is more difficult because of the tendency for children to assume the name of the father. In grants based on a Scottish ancestor the letters patent usually include the words "...and to the other descendants of (The Name of the Scottish Ancestor) the arms following, with such due and proper differences..."

In the instance of General Colin Powell his entitlement to arms was based first and foremost on his having been made an honourary knight in one of her majesty's orders of chivalry. The choice to seek the grant in Scotland may have been influenced by Powell's Scottish ancestry or by his desire to have "substantive arms" as opposed to the "honorary" arms devised by the College.