Sub-Forum Descriptors

[seanachie]

I think we've visited that one... cot/poly, polyv, acrylic tartan (bolded as it is the operative term) kilts worn in a traditional manner would most likely fall into the "traditional" camp, while not being "historical".

Many of us with thinning heads of hair should be benefiting from this thread, as every hair on it has been solidly split...

I disagree with this "operative term" I have a saffron kilt, and it is every bit as much a kilt as a tartan kilt but it is not tartan. It is however, hand made and of a traditional style. The same applies to my solid green and a future kilt in St Patrick's Blue.

[CMcG]

Thanks to the mods for their efforts to both make Xmarks a better place and to please everyone. I sincerely hope the task is only Herculean and not Sisyphean!

I have not yet formulated how I would write the descriptors but I am thinking about it. My thoughts are being guided by Thistledown's words and suggest everyone else do the same. This will help us to at least be discussing the same things...

<snip>
There are a number of things to consider. One is that we are not able to further fracture the forum by adding more sub-forums; it is necessary to work with what we have. It is also necessary that all three sub-forums have a common base that makes sense and is easily understood by old-timer and newbie alike. Further, the three need to have equal rights because XMarks is a kilt forum without bias to any one of the three.

[Father Bill]

You know, friends, I think the Mods are doing a marvellous job of trying to be responsive to the concerns of the members, and particularly recognizing that the kilt probably has an almost infinite number of variations and permutations all of which will make it difficult to define and categorize. Let's be careful to cut them (and one another) a little bit of slack and wiggle room. After all, can you imagine any kilt without wiggle?

Whatever we end up with, it cannot fit every possible variation unless every kiilt has its own category.

And then we'd be into shirts, jackets, ties, hose, flashes, shoes, sporrans sghians . . . . You know where I going with this, I hope. Let's enjoy and appreciate the attention given to our avocation.

[KiltedCodeWarrior]

Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and some historical perspective. The way that forums are broken out and what goes in to them has been a well debated topic for at least 5 years, and likely began soon after Hank started XMTS with the forums that he thought were appropriate and one of the first 50 members probably said, "You know Hank, I think it would be better this way.". And the suggestions for improvement have continued every since. And there are basically two facts that come out of all these discussions. 1. Everybody has a different opinion on what they think is the "right" grouping/separation/definition of each forum/sub-forum, and 2. if a change is made, it won't satisfy everybody.

We don't all wear out kilts the same way (well, except for the pleats being in the back!), nor do we all agree on how to categorize discussions on this wonderful garment that we wear in a plethora of ways and styles. And we never will agree, which is OK. In the immortal words of Robert Heinlein, more than 3 people can't agree on what to eat for dinner, let alone something important.

I think that a sticky/FAQ/whatever written by Steve as the owner would help to clarify each forum. At the end of the day, it is Steve's definition that should control how the forum is organized. While it is nice that he and the mods ask for our input, at the end of the day they have the final say.

[CMcG]

I've taken a stab at overhauling the descriptors with the idea that simple is better. It needs to be short and to the point, which means it can't be comprehensive. I’ve tried to get the idea across while remaining general enough for easy use.

Historical Highland Attire & Uniforms. The place for discussion of kilt apparel of the past and prescribed regalia.

AKA "How It Used To Be Done and Uniform Regulations."

I noticed in one of the suggestions that the word "military" had cropped up. I would rather continue to use the word "uniform" from the old descriptor because it can include other things, like pipe bands. This is for kilt apparel that is no longer worn (except perhaps by re-enactors) and for styles prescribed by organizations in order to identify their members.

Traditional Highland Dress. The place for discussion of classic, Scottish, civilian, kilt apparel and style.

AKA "The Established Way To Wear The Kilt."

This descriptor has all the key words but does away with the repetition from some other versions. Here we would have discussions about the rules for kilt wearing according to established conventions, as well as the wonderful variety of expression to be found within tradition. This is for current ways of wearing the kilt that have stood the test of time.

Modern Kilt Wear. The place for discussion of nontraditional kilts and contemporary style.

AKA "There Are No Rules."

Here we find utility kilts but also nontraditional ways of wearing a traditional kilt. A key factor is the attitude that one is not conforming to established standards of attire. Anything that is current but is a departure from tradition should go here. The kilt as everyday alternative to p@nts might be most at home in this category but we could also see fashion, punk, goth, etc.

--------------------------------

As a couple people have raised examples, let me look at two.

A non-wool tartan kilt should be posted according to whether one wishes to discuss it based on tradition or not. Of course it isn’t strictly traditional, but perhaps someone is still building their wardrobe and doesn’t have a tank yet. Or maybe they’re allergic to wool!

A monochrome kilt outfit, even if it’s built around a tank, doesn’t look traditional. I would think the aesthetic is better suited to the Modern section.

Now, there are bound to be things that don’t fit neatly into one of those three categories. Luckily we have the General Kilt Talk section to cover murky grey area!

[Cowher]

Historical Highland Attire & Uniforms. The place for discussion of kilt apparel of the past and prescribed regalia.

AKA "How It Used To Be Done and Uniform Regulations."

I noticed in one of the suggestions that the word "military" had cropped up. I would rather continue to use the word "uniform" from the old descriptor because it can include other things, like pipe bands. This is for kilt apparel that is no longer worn (except perhaps by re-enactors) and for styles prescribed by organizations in order to identify their members.

Traditional Highland Dress. The place for discussion of classic, Scottish, civilian, kilt apparel and style.

AKA "The Established Way To Wear The Kilt."

This descriptor has all the key words but does away with the repetition from some other versions. Here we would have discussions about the rules for kilt wearing according to established conventions, as well as the wonderful variety of expression to be found within tradition. This is for current ways of wearing the kilt that have stood the test of time.

Modern Kilt Wear. The place for discussion of nontraditional kilts and contemporary style.

AKA "There Are No Rules."

Here we find utility kilts but also nontraditional ways of wearing a traditional kilt. A key factor is the attitude that one is not conforming to established standards of attire. Anything that is current but is a departure from tradition should go here. The kilt as everyday alternative to p@nts might be most at home in this category but we could also see fashion, punk, goth, etc.

I love it. Along with the stickys there will be no question what goes where and it is accurate.

[DWFII]

Now, there are bound to be things that don’t fit neatly into one of those three categories. Luckily we have the General Kilt Talk section to cover murky grey area!

Good point!

But it begs the question doesn't it? Haven't we always had a "General Kilt Talk section to cover murky grey area"? And if so, what's the point of changing any of this?

What is gained? Frankly...and no disrespect intended...I find those titles and descriptions too much like verbal muzak. To me they seem more vague and, if nothing else, lacking the brevity and succinctness that characterized the original titles/descriptions. That strikes me as a net loss.

No doubt you feel the same way about my suggestions...

I am resigned to being the odd man out here but somebody has to do it.

Machts nichts.

[Lyle1]

Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents and some historical perspective. The way that forums are broken out and what goes in to them has been a well debated topic for at least 5 years, and likely began soon after Hank started XMTS with the forums that he thought were appropriate and one of the first 50 members probably said, "You know Hank, I think it would be better this way.". And the suggestions for improvement have continued every since. And there are basically two facts that come out of all these discussions. 1. Everybody has a different opinion on what they think is the "right" grouping/separation/definition of each forum/sub-forum, and 2. if a change is made, it won't satisfy everybody.

We don't all wear out kilts the same way (well, except for the pleats being in the back!), nor do we all agree on how to categorize discussions on this wonderful garment that we wear in a plethora of ways and styles. And we never will agree, which is OK. In the immortal words of Robert Heinlein, more than 3 people can't agree on what to eat for dinner, let alone something important.

I think that a sticky/FAQ/whatever written by Steve as the owner would help to clarify each forum. At the end of the day, it is Steve's definition that should control how the forum is organized. While it is nice that he and the mods ask for our input, at the end of the day they have the final say.

Amen! No matter what you change, some one will insist that it is wrong, or want to argue about the definition of a word used in the description. In all, I think this haggling over sub-forum titles makes actually talking about kilts a little difficult!

[DWFII]

At the end of the day, it is Steve's definition that should control how the forum is organized. While it is nice that he and the mods ask for our input, at the end of the day they have the final say.

Just out of common civility if nothing else, however, I believe we owe him/them the benefit of the doubt--if they are asking for input you have to assume that they mean to use it.

[English Bloke]

Hey! hey heyhey?

How about:

The Kilt - Historical

The Kilt - Traditional

The Kilt - Modern

It doesn't need explanation, we know what the words mean... Let the bright people of X Marks work it out for themselves.