Glengarry Question

[OC Richard]

I had always heard that pipers were often hired for the regiments, which is why they (sometimes) wear different kilts (usually Royal Stewart) and plain glengarries

Yes indeed. In the 1670s Sir James Turner, an officer in The Scots Guards, wrote:

"With us any Captain may keep a piper in his Company and maintain him, too, for no pay is allowed him, perhaps just as much as he deserveth."

These pipers would sometimes be dressed in livery, as they would be in civilian employ.

As late as 1845 the pipers of the 93rd Highlanders were dressed in Rob Roy tartan coatees, kilts, plaids, and full hose.

But this is all before Glengarries were worn in the military.

In the 1840s the 79th Highlanders came up with a new costume for their pipers: a dark green doublet (the entire army wore coatees at this time, and this was the first time the military had used doublets, being a civilian thing at the time), a Glengarry (which was supposedly designed by an officer of the regiment, but was in fact already worn by civilians), and black waistbelt and crossbelt with silver fittings. The Cameron of Erracht kilt and long plaid were the same as worn by the regiment.

From being a civilian thing to the exclusive dress of the pipers of a single regiment to becoming standard headdress for the entire Scottish infantry, thus was the path of the Glengarry.

Anyhow the Scottish regiments weren't allowed pipers on the official establishment until 1852, when each regiment was allowed one Pipe Major and five pipers.

the Black Watch precedent of plain glengarries for pipers and red and white diced for drummers.

This is not correct. In the Black Watch and the Cameron Highlanders the entire regiment, riflemen, officers, pipers, drummers, everyone entire wore plain navy blue Glengarries. (Black Glengarries were never worn in the Army; they were always extremely dark blue.)

Red and white diced Glengarries were worn only by the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders, by the entire regiment, except by the pipers. The pipers of all regiments wore plain navy blue Glengarries.

Many Police pipe bands wear "Police Dice" Glengarries, black and white diced, the dicing smaller/finer than the dicing on Army Glengarries.

In many Police pipe bands, unlike military pipe bands, the pipers wear diced Glengarries just like the drummers.

[Herr Doktor]

"Red/white/black dicing is a modern civilian thing."

No, the 48th Highlanders of Canada wear the red, white and black dicing on their Glengarry as well as on their feather bonnet. The kilt hose is woven in the same pattern as well. Since 1891.

[OC Richard]

Interesting about the 48th Highlanders. I always should add, when I post, that I'm speaking of the Scottish regiments of Scotland.

Every time I post something about Scottish uniform, somebody posts "well the South Saskatoon Highlanders wore such-and-such" or whatnot and I have to admit I know little of Dominion regiments.

I might point out that that photo is black and white, from which colours cannot be ascertained. Any clear closeup colour photos?

Anyhow, here are some photos which highlight some of the points I made above.

Here are Royal Scots Fusiliers brothers, one a piper, one not, showing the mixing of diced and undiced Glens in the same unit:



And here, a collection of Pipe Majors and Drum Majors in India. Note the Drum Major of the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders wearing the regiment's distinctive red & white diced Glengarry, while the Pipe Major's is plain.

Also the Drum Major of the Seaforth Highlanders is wearing that regiment's diced Glengarry while of course the Pipe Major's is plain (as are all pipers').

One can also see that the Drum Majors of the Black Watch and the Cameron Highlanders in plain Glengarries, like their entire regiments.



And as to Glengarries being seen on the heads of civilian before their adoption by the pipers of the Cameron Highlanders, here is the Chief of Clan Murray in 1822



and worn by Angus MacKay, the earliest clear image of a Glengarry I can find

[Herr Doktor]

"Interesting about the 48th Highlanders. I always should add, when I post, that I'm speaking of the Scottish regiments of Scotland.

Every time I post something about Scottish uniform, somebody posts "well the South Saskatoon Highlanders wore such-and-such" or whatnot and I have to admit I know little of Dominion regiments."

There are a great many Scottish Highland military regiments all over the world, except the USA of course. One must not neglect them just because they are not in Scotland proper. Not being in Scotland does not make them any the less 'Scottish'.


" I might point out that that photo is black and white, from which colours cannot be ascertained. Any clear closeup colour photos?"

Having been explained that the colours of the dicing are red, white and black, one can should be able to discern them in the black and white photograph. But here is a colour picture none the less to remove the doubt.

[OC Richard]

The dark squares look greenish to me. Maybe it's just the photo. I suppose I'll have to see one in person one day.

Of course here in the US we did have a Highland regiment



but it was only around from 1858 until c1880.

I forget oftentimes to specify, but always when I speak of "Highland regiments" or "Scottish regiments" or "the Army" or "military" I'm referring to British units unless otherwise specified.

[macwilkin]

US Forces have also had a number of pipe bands, including the US Air Force and USAF Reserves, the Sixth Army, 360th Regiment, 91st Division (US Army Reserve), the 7th Cavalry Regiment, The US Military Academy and the US Naval Academy, as well as the US Marine Detachment stationed in Londonderry, Northern Ireland during the Second World War, just to name a few. There are also unofficial bands of the Marines and Coast Guard.

T.

[OC Richard]

US Forces have also had a number of pipe bands.

Just to be clear, the quote I was responding to was not about pipe bands, it was the statement "there are a great many Scottish Highland regiments all over the world except for the USA of course".

As far as I know, the 79th New York in the 1858-1861 period was the only US unit to issue Highland Dress with kilts as standard uniform (for its initial companies, not the additional companies raised in 1861 to bring the regiment up to full strength for war service, who were issued tartan trousers).

[macwilkin]

Just to be clear, the quote I was responding to was not about pipe bands, it was the statement "there are a great many Scottish Highland regiments all over the world except for the USA of course".

As far as I know, the 79th New York in the 1858-1861 period was the only US unit to issue Highland Dress with kilts as standard uniform (for its initial companies, not the additional companies raised in 1861 to bring the regiment up to full strength for war service, who were issued tartan trousers).

There are some references to antebellum militia companies in Charleston, New Orleans and San Francisco wearing Highland kit, but so far I haven't found anything that confirms it. The hunt goes on...

T.

[Nick the DSM]

Just searching google I came across this book.
The Confederate Army 1861-65: South Carolina & Mississippi by Ron Field.

Of several Scottish Charleston companies the oldest was the Union Light Infantry, formed at the Carolina Coffee house in 1807. Named in the honor of the union of Scotland with England in 1707, this "Lowland" corps maintained a Scottish style of dress throughout its existence. A vetern writing to the New York Scottish American Journal in 1870 commented that its pre-war uniform included "the tartan plaid and pants and bonnet of the [British Army's] 42nd Highlanders, and gilt thistle buttons on their coats." Another company, called the Highland Guard, was established during 1857. Still in existence on the eve of the Civil War, this unit wore a full highland uniform even closer to that of the 42nd (Highland) Regt: a bearskin bonnet with red plume, scarlet doublet with dark blue facings, and kilt of black and green Government sett ("Black Watch" tartan).

Google books will only let me look at certain pages, I can't see much more about this.

[macwilkin]

Just searching google I came across this book.
The Confederate Army 1861-65: South Carolina & Mississippi by Ron Field.



Google books will only let me look at certain pages, I can't see much more about this.

Yes, I have seen that reference before. It would help if we could see the primary source where it originated from.

T.