Family traditions

[Lime]

I say. Steady on chaps!

I type with a twinkle in my eye and a good natured guffaw... sorry if it didn't quite come out like that!

[OC Richard]

This blending of Scots and Irish here in the USA is an interesting topic.

Behind it all is the ancient fact that the Highland Gaels were a people and culture imported to Scotland from Ireland. For centuries there was ongoing contact between the two. Young Highland pipers were sent to Ireland for training in their art. The English commented upon the Highlanders speaking "the Irish language".

Our modern notion of Scotland and Ireland being seperate political entities would have meant nothing to a 14th century Gael, who could have passed from the Highlands to Ireland speaking the same language and being within a shared culture.

Anyhow the muddling of the concepts of Scottishness and Irishness here in the USA has been helped along by the unfortunate term "Scotch-Irish". These Ulster Scots came here in an 18th century mass migration (c1717-1775).

But to many modern Americans the term "Scotch-Irish" is thought to mean people of mixed Scottish and Irish ancestry. Once I was out piping somewhere and a teenage girl came up and told me that her ancestors were from "Scotch-Ireland".

[Lime]

Thank you OC Richard; how very interesting. I had never even heard the term "Scotch-Irish" but I gather from the internet (which is never wrong) that this is not unusual this side of the pond.

I do really find the whole concept, that the two could be confused, astonishing. I suppose that those in the United Kingdom and Ireland are much closer to and aware of the various traits and differences. I am sure that I am guilty of unconsciously lumping together people from other parts of the world into convenient groups without realising that they have their own distinct identities... we call them "foreigners"! (joke!).

[piperdbh]

I had never even heard the term "Scotch-Irish"...

It's a corruption of "Scots-Irish", which some sources refer to as "Ulster Scots". When Americans use the term, we're referring to either
a) Irish people who were moved to Scotland for various political/social reasons, who then emigrated to North America, or
b) Scots and Irish immigrants who intermarried over the course of time and now the family tree is a tangled thorn bush, or
c) both.

Confused yet?

[HeathBar]

a) Irish peolpe who were moved to Scotland for various political/social reasons, who then emigrated to North America

I think you have that reversed.

[Hamilton pride]

I have a question directed mainly at persons living in or have lived in Scotland, anyone can comment if they like. This may be an American point of view, but as someone trying to get back to their heritage I feel I need to ask. It seems as if hundreds of years ago the people of Scotland fought hard to be independent from England and were proud to be from Scotland. It seems like now you look on any map and it shows Scotland, North Ireland & England all as the United Kingdom. There is no Scotland, and isn't that what our ancestors fought and died for ? I am not trying to offend anyone I was just wondering why ????

[Jock Scot]

I have a question directed mainly at persons living in or have lived in Scotland, anyone can comment if they like. This may be an American point of view, but as someone trying to get back to their heritage I feel I need to ask. It seems as if hundreds of years ago the people of Scotland fought hard to be independent from England and were proud to be from Scotland. It seems like now you look on any map and it shows Scotland, North Ireland & England all as the United Kingdom. There is no Scotland, and isn't that what our ancestors fought and died for ? I am not trying to offend anyone I was just wondering why ????

One needs to be careful when talking about Scots people fighting hard for independence from England. It is true that people fought hard to KEEP Scotland indipendent, but in 1603 the Scots and English crowns voluntarily united(that is where the UK--United Kingdom comes from) and in 1707 with the Act of Union, the Scots parliament VOTED to unify. OK the voting system was far from perfect from a modern perspective, but a fight there was not.

If you then move on to Bonnie Prince Charlie and his failed attempt to gain the Crown ------that had absolutely nothing to do with Scottish independence and really should be regarded as a large and tragic family squabble.

Which brings us on to the present day where the independence issue is topical, but has yet to be decided.