Family traditions

[Lime]

Thank you OC Richard; how very interesting. I had never even heard the term "Scotch-Irish" but I gather from the internet (which is never wrong) that this is not unusual this side of the pond.

I do really find the whole concept, that the two could be confused, astonishing. I suppose that those in the United Kingdom and Ireland are much closer to and aware of the various traits and differences. I am sure that I am guilty of unconsciously lumping together people from other parts of the world into convenient groups without realising that they have their own distinct identities... we call them "foreigners"! (joke!).

[Lyle1]

"To me the Irish & Scots are the same" - I can assure you most emphatically that they are not! To me however all Americans are the same!

I think that is the most common mistake that people make about America. The typical American simply does not exist. America is huge compared to Europe; all of Europe does not equal the land mass of even the United States of America. We have vastly differing climatic conditions across the US in any given day, and people in different parts of the US simply have different lifestyles and, often, different attitudes and outlooks. The variables are great from locale to locale, and it is possible for an American to feel like a foreigner in another state.

My wife and I grew up in the same city, but in different worlds. Our family histories and experiences are very different. We grew up eating different foods, heard different languages spoken, and even had a totally different perspective on living in a city. We have Italian ancestry in common, but her Italian ancestors came to the US after 1900, and retained much of the culture of their home villages and cities (her parents' families came from different areas of Italy, and even their customs and traditions are very different). My Italian ancestors left Italy hundreds of years ago (the last in the late 1600's), and I only learned of them about two years ago. However, given the ethnic diversity of the neighborhood where I grew up, I have a rich background of experiences with Italian tradition.

Americans are a heterogeneous group of people; we have many things in common, but we are truly not the "same".

[piperdbh]

I had never even heard the term "Scotch-Irish"...

It's a corruption of "Scots-Irish", which some sources refer to as "Ulster Scots". When Americans use the term, we're referring to either
a) Irish people who were moved to Scotland for various political/social reasons, who then emigrated to North America, or
b) Scots and Irish immigrants who intermarried over the course of time and now the family tree is a tangled thorn bush, or
c) both.

Confused yet?

[HeathBar]

a) Irish peolpe who were moved to Scotland for various political/social reasons, who then emigrated to North America

I think you have that reversed.

[Hamilton pride]

I have a question directed mainly at persons living in or have lived in Scotland, anyone can comment if they like. This may be an American point of view, but as someone trying to get back to their heritage I feel I need to ask. It seems as if hundreds of years ago the people of Scotland fought hard to be independent from England and were proud to be from Scotland. It seems like now you look on any map and it shows Scotland, North Ireland & England all as the United Kingdom. There is no Scotland, and isn't that what our ancestors fought and died for ? I am not trying to offend anyone I was just wondering why ????

[creagdhubh]

Thank you for sharing your story - I can easily relate through my family and our Highland heritage/traditions. Wonderful photo! May I ask who is leading the Kennedys? I see two tall feathers being worn, his he a chieftain of some sort? Thanks.

Cheers,

[Gael Ridire]

Aaaah, knew I'd get a comment with writing that statement about the Irish & Scots being the same. I apologize if I struck a nerve. Of course now there is a difference. About 1600 years ago a tribe in north-east up and in mass left Scotia Major and setup Scotia Minor, where a century or so later petitioned the High-King at Tara to become their own country. To help in this the "La Fiel" Stone or inauguration stone was lent to Dal Riata to help in this. It is to this event that I refer to and think of when I say they are the same. But it seems to me that in history over the succeeding centuries they basically got along until pitted against each other by a third party.

As for wearing the kilt: As one Lowlander said when asked if his forefathers wore the kilt, "NO! My ancestors could afford pants!" Okay, as others have posted in this thread that even those raised in the same city can have totally different experiences, customs, & cultures. Some twenty years ago I met a Cornishman wearing a tartan kilt. He was traveling North America letting all know that the Cornish were Celts not English. In Cornwall it was voted on that the kilt, etc., would be adopted because "the world knows that the kilt comes from Scotland, who are Celts." Just over a hundred years ago the Irish Gaelic League voted to adopt the kilt only in solid colors.

When I strap on my kilt it is a very spiritual experience for me. I feel as if I'm connecting into the energy of my forefathers. So, for me the Irish & Scots have the same roots. Besides tartan looks so much better that a solid color for a kilt.

Creagdhubh : Actually the guy with the two feathers is of Clan Henderson and represents their Chief in North America.

[Lime]

I have a question directed mainly at persons living in or have lived in Scotland, anyone can comment if they like. This may be an American point of view, but as someone trying to get back to their heritage I feel I need to ask. It seems as if hundreds of years ago the people of Scotland fought hard to be independent from England and were proud to be from Scotland. It seems like now you look on any map and it shows Scotland, North Ireland & England all as the United Kingdom. There is no Scotland, and isn't that what our ancestors fought and died for ? I am not trying to offend anyone I was just wondering why ????

I'm sure you can find the historical reasons on the Interweb (if you don't already know them) but there is still a call for independence by various political parties (and some non-political groups) and there have been steps towards this with Westminister delegating powers to Scotland, the Welsh Assembly and the Northern Ireland Assembly. The media, over here, are always discussing a proposed referendum on independence. So some are still fighting for independence while others are happy with the status quo.

People on this side of the pond are generally very proud of being Scottish, or Irish, or Northern Irish, or Ulster Scots (which I have heard of!), or Yorkshiremen, or Cornish, or Welsh, or Londoners or Liverpudlians etc as I am sure many on the other side are very proud of being Mainetonians, West Utans or South Idahinians (or whatever the case may be).

[Jock Scot]

I have a question directed mainly at persons living in or have lived in Scotland, anyone can comment if they like. This may be an American point of view, but as someone trying to get back to their heritage I feel I need to ask. It seems as if hundreds of years ago the people of Scotland fought hard to be independent from England and were proud to be from Scotland. It seems like now you look on any map and it shows Scotland, North Ireland & England all as the United Kingdom. There is no Scotland, and isn't that what our ancestors fought and died for ? I am not trying to offend anyone I was just wondering why ????

One needs to be careful when talking about Scots people fighting hard for independence from England. It is true that people fought hard to KEEP Scotland indipendent, but in 1603 the Scots and English crowns voluntarily united(that is where the UK--United Kingdom comes from) and in 1707 with the Act of Union, the Scots parliament VOTED to unify. OK the voting system was far from perfect from a modern perspective, but a fight there was not.

If you then move on to Bonnie Prince Charlie and his failed attempt to gain the Crown ------that had absolutely nothing to do with Scottish independence and really should be regarded as a large and tragic family squabble.

Which brings us on to the present day where the independence issue is topical, but has yet to be decided.

[OC Richard]

The unification thing has ebbed back and forth over the years.

There was a time when being British was stressed, when the word "Scotland" itself was often dropped and was replaced by the term "North Britain".

In 1708 the Royal Scotch Dragoons' (sic) title was changed to the Royal North British Dragoons. "North British" was not replaced by "Scots" until 1877.

Likewise the Scotch Fuzileers' (sic) title was changed to the North British Fuzileers in 1707, the "Scots" not returning until 1877.

But now Scottishness is stressed once more and Scotland has a brand-spankin' new (and unspeakably hideous) Parliament building.

About the term "Scotch-Irish" it was originally used to refer to the Ulster Scots. Many of the Scotch-Irish who immigrated here were only a generation removed from Scotland, and were not Irish in the least, though they arrived here from Irish ports. (Hence the confusion amongst Americans of that time: these people arrived from Ireland, they must be Irish.)

There was no mixed Scottish/Irish culture here at any early date. The mass of Ulster Scots arrived here more than a hundred years before the Potato Famine Irish began arriving, and by that time the Ulster Scots had mostly become Methodists and Baptists and were largely melded into British Protestant America. (Yes in Appalachia the descendants of the Ulster Scots continued to make whisky and fiddle and dance in the old Scottish way.)

The early 18th century Ulster Scots pushed to what was the frontier at that time; the mid 19th century Potato Famine Irish went to the big Northern cities. The former produced politicians such as George Wallace, the latter politicians like JFK, two men quite different in their speech, religion, and culture in general.