Clergy badge and Armiger feather

[Chas]

Not to be flippant, but "Render unto Lyon the things that are Lyon's..."

Sorry, sorry...

T.

Good point, Todd. Good point.

I'm off to buy as many "Eagle, Globe and Anchor" badges as I can.

Regards

Chas

[Peter Crowe]

I don't want to take this thread on a tangent but regarding badges relating to various Churches, The Church of Scotland and The Free Church of Scotland both use the 'Burning Bush' emblem of YHWH revealing himself to Moshe on Mt. Sinai. The Latin motto for the Church of Scotland is Nec Tamen Consvmebatvr (The tree was aflame but not consumed). The Reformed Church in France and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland use the same symbol but with different mottoes. I don't expect that the motto has anything to do with the Kirk's pre-1560 status as subject to the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome. The Scottish Reformation had among it's lay leaders, George Buchanan, who was arguably the greatest humanist scholar and latinist in the Europe of his time, and who until the early 21st century had been the only Ruling Elder (not a Minister of the Sacrament and Word) to be Moderator of the General Assembly. Moreover, the study of Latin was still very important in Scotland down to quite recent times, and until the early 18th century that was the only language of instruction in the (Ancient) Scottish Universities.

[macwilkin]

I don't want to take this thread on a tangent but regarding badges relating to various Churches, The Church of Scotland and The Free Church of Scotland both use the 'Burning Bush' emblem of YHWH revealing himself to Moshe on Mt. Sinai. The Latin motto for the Church of Scotland is Nec Tamen Consvmebatvr (The tree was aflame but not consumed). The Reformed Church in France and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland use the same symbol but with different mottoes. I don't expect that the motto has anything to do with the Kirk's pre-1560 status as subject to the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome. The Scottish Reformation had among it's lay leaders, George Buchanan, who was arguably the greatest humanist scholar and latinist in the Europe of his time, and who until the early 21st century had been the only Ruling Elder (not a Minister of the Sacrament and Word) to be Moderator of the General Assembly. Moreover, the study of Latin was still very important in Scotland down to quite recent times, and until the early 18th century that was the only language of instruction in the (Ancient) Scottish Universities.

It is also the symbol of the Irish Presbyterian Church and at least one Reformed/Covenanting Presbyterian churches.

T.

[Jock Scot]

Crumbs, I know very little of the workings of the various Christian Churches. Now I have discovered that I know even less than I thought I did!

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

Something to bear in mind... The jurisdiction of a clan chief is universal and, as Lord Lyon Sellars has stated, Lyon has no authority over who may, or may not, wear feathers-- that is strictly up to the chief of a clan. To bring order to chaos Lord Lyon Sir Thomas Innes of Learney did, quite properly, establish a set of guidelines concerning feathers prior to WWII, and these guidelines are adhered to by chief and clanfolk alike. They do not, however, restrict the wearing of feathers to only Scottish armigers, as any attempt to do so would be ultra vires of the jurisdiction of the Lyon Court.

There is absolutely no reason why, for instance, a Canadian armiger could not wear feathers in the same manner as a Scottish armiger, and indeed many do.

[Bugbear]

Crumbs, I know very little of the workings of the various Christian Churches. Now I have discovered that I know even less than I thought I did!

I know how you feel, Jock.

It's interesting though. I often refer to an Oxford Christian history book, but these details aren't in there.

[kilted scholar]

Gradatim vincemus: "I don't want to take this thread on a tangent but regarding badges relating to various Churches, The Church of Scotland and The Free Church of Scotland both use the 'Burning Bush' emblem of YHWH revealing himself to Moshe on Mt. Sinai. The Latin motto for the Church of Scotland is Nec Tamen Consvmebatvr (The tree was aflame but not consumed). The Reformed Church in France and the Presbyterian Church in Ireland use the same symbol but with different mottoes. I don't expect that the motto has anything to do with the Kirk's pre-1560 status as subject to the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome. The Scottish Reformation had among it's lay leaders, George Buchanan, who was arguably the greatest humanist scholar and latinist in the Europe of his time, and who until the early 21st century had been the only Ruling Elder (not a Minister of the Sacrament and Word) to be Moderator of the General Assembly. Moreover, the study of Latin was still very important in Scotland down to quite recent times, and until the early 18th century that was the only language of instruction in the (Ancient) Scottish Universities."

Peter is correct.
The burning bush emblem together with the Latin inscription he cites was used by the Genevan printer, Eustathium Vignon from at least the late 1540s, as is seen in the books coming from that publishing house. See works by Calvin, Beza and other Reformed theologians of the day. While I cannot speak with 100% certainty on this I strongly conjecture that the post-Reformation Church of Scotland took it over from Geneva, since John Knox was resident there during the Marian persecution (Knox had been, of course, a prominent figure in the English Reformation during the reign of Edward VI) before moving back to Scotland after the accession of Elizabeth I.*
The Church of Scotland owns no copyright over the words, since they come from Exodus chapter 3.
*The death of Queen Mary and the accession of Elizabeth cleared the way for Knox's return, and thence to Scotland.
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[Chas]

That Lord Lyon - what a fool, eh! He'll post any old rubbish on his website. How are we to respect him as the authority, when he can't get that right.

Regards

Chas

[Joseph McMillan]

That Lord Lyon - what a fool, eh! He'll post any old rubbish on his website. How are we to respect him as the authority, when he can't get that right.

Well, Chas, two observations:

1. Lyon says in the passages quoted what various people may do. He does not say that others may not do those things. I've looked through Lyon's enabling statutes over and over and can't find the word "feather." In other words, he can regulate the display of crests; he can't regulate the display of feathers.

2. Lyon's writ runs only as far as the outermost of the Hebrides.

[Chas]

You are so right, Joseph.

Regards

Chas