Whatever has happened to manners

[creagdhubh]

Lyle said,

"So, do we follow the example of previous generations? I personally hope that we do not, but I also hope that we have the wisdom to retain what was good about the customs and practices of previous generations."

Wonderful statement, Lyle! I also agree with the entirety of your post, however, the particular statement above, in my opinion, really hits the nail on the head.

Cheers mate,

[Peter Crowe]

Well, it was easier in previous generations! Most everyone grew up with a firm knowledge of their place in the social scheme of things. They knew their place, meaning that they knew who was better than they were and who was lower on the scale than they were. Unfortunately, manners went one way; you definitely observed the conventions when dealing with your social superiors, and probably with your equals. Those who were considered lower than yourself paid deference to you.

Many of us grew up being told by older generations that in America everyone was equal and that gentlemen gave up their seats for ladies. Then we saw the reality. Gentlemen did give up their seats to women of their own social class and race, and were considered boorish if they did not. However, a black women could be jailed for refusing to give up her seat on a bus to a white man when ordered to do so, and many "well mannered" people defended that action and, further, said protesters were uppity. How many times during the 1960's did I here that "some of them are OK because they "know their place", which really meant, did not try to sit beside their betters or exercise their constitutional rights. Much of what I was taught stuck with me, but not because of the example of the people who were teaching me. It stuck because I recognized that what they said about how to treat others was a good way to live, even if they did not really live that way themselves.

After WWI, the social order changed drastically in Europe as thousands of young men from the lower orders returned from the trenches and refused to honor the old social rules that meant that they tipped their hats to their social betters and did not quite make eye contact with them unless spoken to directly. I think the same thing happened in the USA after WWII and continues today.

So, do we follow the example of previous generations? I personally hope that we do not, but I also hope that we have the wisdom to retain what was good about the customs and practices of previous generations.

I really tried to stay out of this discussion, but I succumbed to the temptation. I did not mean to offend, though clearly I did. I was going to apologize, but I think that would be an inappropriate thing to do. Maybe at least one person who reads this tread will stop to think about the intent of manners rather than being proud of the rote performance of what he was told was the correct way to act.

Indeed Lyle what you have very eloquently stated above has (along with Kyle and Chas) my full agreement. I personally find custom and tradition efficacious guides to both manners and kilt-wearing. However, I am also acutely aware that traditions are evolutionary phenomena which have to adapt to new realities, be they social, economic, or political, otherwise they ossify and die out.

[Alan H]

This age thing was brought home to me when my 16 year old step daughter-----bless her------thought that our 30 year old postman was old. She must think that I am Methuselah's elder brother!

I think it is quite understandable that each generation finds it own set of standards of behaviour, in spite of my parents dire predictions my generation did, my sons' generation has, and there is no doubt that my step children are doing so, but in the end I do think that most of them---not all by any means----end up being fairly civil to others, eventually!

HA! and wise, too.

Our grandchildren will someday berate THEIR grandchildren for their horrendous manners. Or whatever. Of that we can be relatively sure. As you say, each generation finds its way.

Old and wise. And probably would charm the sox off of most of the 20-somethings that I know.

[Alan H]

I have been watching this discussion with some interest. While I was raised to offer my seat to a lady, I understand that with gender equality, some may feel that is no longer appropriate. Still, I believe the young women of today can go a long way to help create a more modern, but none the less thoughtful courtesy. An example:

I was riding home on the Metro (Washington DC's subway system) during rush hour, and as usual, there were no seats. There are seats which are supposed to be yielded to elderly or handicapped persons, near the door of each car. I am, by calender, old enough to request such a seat, but since my legs work just fine, I don't. The day in question, a young couple, obviously on an outing together, were in the special seats. Not a problem, at least at first, there was no one who appeared to need them at hand. At one stop, an elder women got on. She was walking with the aid on a rather substantial orthopedic cane (the ones with four feet on the bottom) and appeared to be in some discomfort. After a brief interval, I addressed the young man. "Sir, You may not have noticed, but I believe the lady really needs that reserved seat you are in." He looked up. told me to perform and anatomical impossiblility, and turned back to his lady friend. She demonstrated that SHE was in fact a lady, albeit not with a gentleman. She stood, said "You can have my seat." to the older woman, and moved some distance away. The young man jumped up and followed her. She turned her back on him, "cutting him dead".
If more young ladies insisted that their male friends be gentlemen, I believe the problem would solve itself.

Great story. GREAT story. See, we don't need to be the manners police. A whole lot of young people know respect and decency when they see it. The specifics may vary from the "rules" that older folks have come to know, but respect is pretty universal. In other words, to quote a famous album...

The kids are all right.

[Alan H]

Lyle1...

Spot on. Well said. RESPECT.

[Meggers]

While I certainly agree with you, Derek, and the others that posted on this thread about the lack of manners in today's society, I would also say that I would have helped this person out because she is old and weak NOT because she is female. Women's liberation killed chivalry and Equality means Equal Responsibilty. I hope, Derek, that you would have shown the same courtesy and helpfulness to an elderly man in the same situation.

This is always a hot spot with girls but I really think my own gender has a very skewed opinion on what feminism means. Feminism is not the death of traditional lifestyle. In fact, in MY opinion, it enforces the traditional lifestyle. (note: what I am about to say applies to ME ONLY and probably does not reflect the opinions of most women. lol) I like a man who acts like a traditional man. I like my man to hold the door open for me, cut the grass, hook up the electronics, pay on dates (most of the time...sorry), be the main breadwinner, etc. etc. This doesn't make me less than him when I don't do those things, it makes me the yin to his yang. Just because he's cutting the grass and I'm making dinner doesn't make me the oppressed one. We are working together to bring harmony and balance. That makes us equals. Without each other, the balance is offset and everything gets messed up. My mom is a stay-at-home mom and my dad goes out and works. This doesnt make my mom oppressed nor does it make her a lazy housewife. She had kids to stay home with and raise. Her job was way harder than a 9-5.

This whole mess about not letting men keep traditional manners around because it "degrades women to less than a man" is a load of crap.

And I dont care if my kids are the only kids who are born within the next 10 years to grow up with manners, they WILL be polite. They will say their pleases and thank yous, hold doors open, let the elderly sit first, etc. Or else they will have a very disappointed mommy to answer to.

[creagdhubh]

This is always a hot spot with girls but I really think my own gender has a very skewed opinion on what feminism means. Feminism is not the death of traditional lifestyle. In fact, in MY opinion, it enforces the traditional lifestyle. (note: what I am about to say applies to ME ONLY and probably does not reflect the opinions of most women. lol) I like a man who acts like a traditional man. I like my man to hold the door open for me, cut the grass, hook up the electronics, pay on dates (most of the time...sorry), be the main breadwinner, etc. etc. This doesn't make me less than him when I don't do those things, it makes me the yin to his yang. Just because he's cutting the grass and I'm making dinner doesn't make me the oppressed one. We are working together to bring harmony and balance. That makes us equals. Without each other, the balance is offset and everything gets messed up. My mom is a stay-at-home mom and my dad goes out and works. This doesnt make my mom oppressed nor does it make her a lazy housewife. She had kids to stay home with and raise. Her job was way harder than a 9-5.

This whole mess about not letting men keep traditional manners around because it "degrades women to less than a man" is a load of crap.

And I dont care if my kids are the only kids who are born within the next 10 years to grow up with manners, they WILL be polite. They will say their pleases and thank yous, hold doors open, let the elderly sit first, etc. Or else they will have a very disappointed mommy to answer to.

Wow, I am impressed! Well said, Meghan! You sound precisley like my wife, Stephanie, and I mean that as a compliment. I agree with your assessment 100%.

Cheers!

[davedove]

Great story. GREAT story. See, we don't need to be the manners police. A whole lot of young people know respect and decency when they see it. The specifics may vary from the "rules" that older folks have come to know, but respect is pretty universal. In other words, to quote a famous album...

The kids are all right.

You see, in the story, it wasn't about whether or not you give your seat up to a lady. I'm a man of the 21st century and I'm fully aware that women are just as able-bodied as men. I believe in being polite to people, whether they are women or men. Someone with an obvious physical need - elderly, disabled, pregnant, whatever - gets the courtesy of the seat. I also hold the door for anyone, regardless of gender, especially if they are older. It's actually a bit sad when you see the faces of an older person when you perform an act of kindness. They seem amazed, as if they don't believe it.

[Geoff Withnell]

You see, in the story, it wasn't about whether or not you give your seat up to a lady. I'm a man of the 21st century and I'm fully aware that women are just as able-bodied as men. I believe in being polite to people, whether they are women or men. Someone with an obvious physical need - elderly, disabled, pregnant, whatever - gets the courtesy of the seat. I also hold the door for anyone, regardless of gender, especially if they are older. It's actually a bit sad when you see the faces of an older person when you perform an act of kindness. They seem amazed, as if they don't believe it.

I just remembered another case of courtesy in seat yeilding which happened to me directly. Many years ago, when my oldest child was about 3 and his younger sister a babe in arms, if fell to me to take them to the doctor one afternooon. Don't remember specifically why, doesn't matter. But it was a LONG bus ride - 1 1/2 hours plus. Coming home, again, rush hour, no seats. So I was standing, a young man in his twenties, with a baby in his arms, a diaper bag on his shoulder, and a 3 year old holding one hand. A lady who appeared about 60 stood, said "You need this seat more than I" - And I took it gratefully.

[be da veva]

Younger, I dated a powerlifter. Funny thing about manners and such. She'd been squatting about 300lbs and when she was done I went and told her that I would get those heavy plates off the bar for her.... That's when she said '' What's with you guys... you don't think I can get those 45lbs plates off myself.... jeeesh....''

Yep, manners are a good thing, but intelligence and wisdom are also required...

My .02CAD$