An alternative to "gentlemen"

[Alan H]

You know, I already don't visit about half, maybe even two-thirds of the forum. I don't look at any of the "traditional" type threads....or the heraldry or the gaelic language, or the kiltmakers threads and so on. I don't go there because I am taking David Popes advice....I avoid what is an irritant. I have several people on "ignore"...same reason, I avoid what is an irritant. If I am an irritant to people, then I encourage them to put me on "ignore" as well.

[English Bloke]

Mmmmm...

Me thinks 'tis time I cooled off on my "out and about" picture threads.

I'm quietly doing that "Could they mean me?" thing again. I must be paranoid.

As a fairly frequent poster of the look what I did at the weekend type thread I assure you I post photos here because I happened to be wearing a kilt (I very often am) and I had a good time while doing it. It's to share the moment with people of a like mind and interest not for any reasons of peacockery. It never occurred to me that some might find it irritating.

It's easy fixed though.

[Lyle1]

You know, I already don't visit about half, maybe even two-thirds of the forum. I don't look at any of the "traditional" type threads....or the heraldry or the gaelic language, or the kiltmakers threads and so on. I don't go there because I am taking David Popes advice....I avoid what is an irritant. I have several people on "ignore"...same reason, I avoid what is an irritant. If I am an irritant to people, then I encourage them to put me on "ignore" as well.

"Dude", I have the distinct impression that we have very different tastes and very different lifestyles. However, while there are a lot of topics and posters, even, as you do, entire sections of this forum, that I skip, I don't think I could ignore your posts if I am reading the thread in which they appear. You are always honest, never pretentious, and you are not afraid to object to the occasional bit of snobbery. Unlike some members who style themselves as "gentlemen", you will never embarrass or shame yourself by trying to prove that you are superior to any other member.

[MacMillans son]

So, having qualified my personal perspective on that, I'm guessing that Alan is just sayin' that he feels that the peacockery just might be sending the wrong message to the average bloke who comes here with the idea of getting into kilting; that he might see all of this and think that to be a genuine kiltie, he has to get into the matchy-matchy, twenty-seven different colors of kilt hose for all occasions, I-know-fifteen-different-necktie-knots, a kilt for every day of the month and special ones for Burns Night, St. Andrew's and the Jewish Holy Days outlook on life and feel like a schlub.

Fair enough AA, though I can't remember anyone saying that you/we HAD to have those items, or number of choices, to be welcome here, just that they (the person posting) happened to have and enjoy them.

But with that said, what about those who are wanting to find out about those details, but come on here only to find a bunch of posts about canvas kilts with combat boots, soccer socks, baseball caps, and Highland athletics? Isn't that too the wrong message for someone who is looking for information about traditional kilting attire?

I really do think it comes down to what many have said here, "Read what you like and leave the rest". There should be no kilt cops nor kilt board posting cops (within the rules of the board).

So as to address your and other's concern about the impression new people get when they come here, perhaps a bit more lengthy introduction at the top of the page indicating that "There are a number of different people, and styles, and preferences, for wearing the kilt and that all are welcome here. We hope you find a forum here that suits your needs" etc. Then we can all go back to enjoying what we come here for, and allow others to do the same

Regards,
Brooke

[robthehiker]

Mmmmm...

Me thinks 'tis time I cooled off on my "out and about" picture threads.

I'm quietly doing that "Could they mean me?" thing again. I must be paranoid.

As a fairly frequent poster of the look what I did at the weekend type thread I assure you I post photos here because I happened to be wearing a kilt (I very often am) and I had a good time while doing it. It's to share the moment with people of a like mind and interest not for any reasons of peacockery. It never occurred to me that some might find it irritating.

It's easy fixed though.

I enjoy your picture threads. Don't change a thing.

[Steve Ashton]

I think that some have figured out by now that this thread is not really about defining the word “Gentleman”. It is more about a perception by one member about how this forum may look to those visiting it for the first time.

We have a good definition of the terms “Lady” and “Gentleman” already.

From our Guiding Principles:
“We agree to conduct ourselves as the Ladies and Gentlemen of X Marks.” This site has always been a place where our members treat each other in a polite and respectful, open and honest manner at all times.”
I actually think that the second sentence defines the terms quite well.
“our members treat each other in a polite and respectful, open and honest manner at all times.”
In this thread, and in other recent ones, it is pretty plain that we, here, define “Gentleman” not by what you wear or how you wear it, but by how one chooses to act towards their fellow members.

This thread is actually about a perception of what X Marks may be turning into. I too, thought at one time, that the “Traditionalists” among our members were getting all the attention. That the focus of the forum was taking on the ‘feel’ and ‘look’ of a Traditional Scottish Highland Wear forum and less of a general kilt forum.

But you know what? I have come to the conclusion that this is not true. Yes, there seem to be more photos posted of one way to wear the kilt than there seem to be about other ways to wear it. The actual reason is simply, because that is who is posting most.

So my advice is not to start threads bemoaning what X Marks is becoming. Don’t rail against what you perceive as something wrong. If you believe that this forum is going in a direction you do not like it is up to you to change it.

If you think that there are too many ‘foppish’ posts and pics? If you think there should be posts and pics of other ways to wear the kilt. Then the solution is simple. Get out your camera, put on your kilt your way, and start some threads of how you dress.

“If there is only one person talking, then that is what the rest will hear.”

[artificer]

But on this point you are dead wrong. I am NOT telling anybody how they must or must not do things.

I am NOT telling anybody how they must or must not do things. Do what you want, as long as you don't break any forum rules.

Bolding mine.
But Alan, people ARE apparently doing what they want, and you've managed to rant on about for 12 pages.

I don't LIKE photograph after photograph after photograph taken by some guys who set up the shots, over and over again with an eye to nothing but showing off their finery to the best effect. Once in a while doesn't bother me, it's fine. Over and over again....it sends a message and I don't think it's good for the forum.

Pictures where someone gets a new jacket and snaps a shot of it? Great! Pictures of YOU, Todd, in your kilt at your Military History Association get-together....Great! Someone gets a new kilt, and snaps a shot or two or three of it? Wonderful! Pictures of someone backpacking in a kilt? Super! Pictures of Pipe Bands, piping in kilts? Love 'em. Pictures of the SEKS Kilt group getting together and razzing the Abuser of Rubber Chickens? Wonderful. I think ....I think those are all wonderful. Guys repeatedly setting up their lovely camera to display the gloriousness of their perfectly coordinated kilted ensemble, assembled through spending hundreds if not thousands of dollars to show us all "how it's done"? No, no Todd. I'm not so keen on that.

But I'll be damned if I'm going to try to tell anybody how they MUST take their pictures.

Sorry, Alan, but again, how is this not a mixed message? You can't have it both ways. Either people will do what they please and shut up when other's do as THEY please (which is what you say you want), or we get 12 pages of b!tch-fest about why you're cranky (which is what we've just gotten). The message "I won't tell people HOW to do things, but I'll complain for 12 pages about it if I don't like it" is all I'm getting here.

But if you ask me, it's not a whole lot farther down the road that we're on now, until this becomes Gentleman Tweedy Toms Place, and I, personally, am not interested in participating in that forum.

AND....I seem to be the only person on the forum who is willing to actually say this out loud.

AND....GGGP is also right. It's OK to be scruffy. It's not a freaking SIN.
"A gentleman is always presentable". Oh, GAG. Of course, that's just MY opinion. Others may be convinced that in fact, of course, a gentleman is ALWAYS "presentable".

Okay, we're now all well versed in what you think the problem IS. Instead of continuing the rant, why not be positive and productive and tell us how you'd go about improving the forum?

By the way, there are a few things you might want to consider before you continue on this particular line of thought:

1) Perhaps the reason people post pix of themselves dressed to the nines is because they wish to participate. Since not everyone is particularly inclined to DIY it is a way for them to post pix and be PART of the forum without the time/money/ability to craft for themselves??

2) Perhaps people post pix of themselves dressed up in search of feedback is because they NEED that positive affirmation or guidance as they are nervous or unsure of being kilted in a formal environment (when it might matter most, socially - ie job/family relations on the line)??

3) Perhaps, just perhaps, people discuss the details of dressing up in such (for you, anyway) excruciating minutia because, let's face it, THERE JUST ISN"T THAT MUCH TO DISCUSS OTHERWISE! Not everyone is a DIYer or Highland Athlete. When you ask the native Scots, they'll just say "Put on whatever you like and go". It's an article of clothing. Without discussion of what new goodie we got, or which type of hose we prefer, or how we like to tie a tie, we're just a bunch of prats sitting around talking about what we like to wear. Then we're just reduced to answering the same 7 questions for newbies ad infinitum, and the forum dies.

Sorry if this all came off as blunt, but since you appreciate plain speaking, there it is.

By the way, I'm still scrubbing leather dye, glue, and pomegranate off my hands and arms from yesterday/this morning, am wearing a PV kilt & black henley with NO hose or socks or sporran, and still need to shave & shower before tonite. And yes, I am scruffy, dirty, and for the situation, very appropriately dressed.

ith:


EDIT: My apologies for continuing the discussion. Steve posted while I was composing.

[Alan H]

[FONT=Book Antiqua]

If you think that there are too many ‘foppish’ posts and pics? If you think there should be posts and pics of other ways to wear the kilt. Then the solution is simple. Get out your camera, put on your kilt your way, and start some threads of how you dress.

“If there is only one person talking, then that is what the rest will hear.”

Best point made, yet.

So, taking this to heart...I'm heading to the pics forum.

[ThistleDown]

Best point made, yet.

So, taking this to heart...I'm heading to the pics forum.

Phewwwww, that took a good few posts, Alan! Have a challenging, happy and ultimately successful New Year

[Brett]

I think that some have figured out by now that this thread is not really about defining the word “Gentleman”. It is more about a perception by one member about how this forum may look to those visiting it for the first time.

We have a good definition of the terms “Lady” and “Gentleman” already.

From our Guiding Principles:
“We agree to conduct ourselves as the Ladies and Gentlemen of X Marks.” This site has always been a place where our members treat each other in a polite and respectful, open and honest manner at all times.”
I actually think that the second sentence defines the terms quite well.
“our members treat each other in a polite and respectful, open and honest manner at all times.”
In this thread, and in other recent ones, it is pretty plain that we, here, define “Gentleman” not by what you wear or how you wear it, but by how one chooses to act towards their fellow members.

This thread is actually about a perception of what X Marks may be turning into. I too, thought at one time, that the “Traditionalists” among our members were getting all the attention. That the focus of the forum was taking on the ‘feel’ and ‘look’ of a Traditional Scottish Highland Wear forum and less of a general kilt forum.

But you know what? I have come to the conclusion that this is not true. Yes, there seem to be more photos posted of one way to wear the kilt than there seem to be about other ways to wear it. The actual reason is simply, because that is who is posting most.

So my advice is not to start threads bemoaning what X Marks is becoming. Don’t rail against what you perceive as something wrong. If you believe that this forum is going in a direction you do not like it is up to you to change it.

If you think that there are too many ‘foppish’ posts and pics? If you think there should be posts and pics of other ways to wear the kilt. Then the solution is simple. Get out your camera, put on your kilt your way, and start some threads of how you dress.

“If there is only one person talking, then that is what the rest will hear.”

I think some excellent points were made here and if I may, I'd like to give a perspective from a new member here less than two months:

I love all the pictures posted by the various members here and it's what kept me here when I first stumbled upon this place. I love the photos posted by the more traditional members who do a great job showing me how I would like to wear my kilt to more formal events. I even love the pictures from the members my father would have referred to a "Dandies". While I'm not a flamboyant person myself, I really appreciate those who are and have the creative ability to pair interesting items together and pull it off.

I love the old historical pictures and could look at them for hours and I think many of them show a strong scots tradition of flamboyant kilt wearing. I also like the pictures of those wearing their kilt while participating in active events weather it be full on highland games or simply a hike in the park. I like the renn fair picture, the steam punk pictures and any of the various alternative lifestyle kilt wearing pictures some post here. It may not be my thing, but I appreciate the creativety and individuality many of these members possess and display.

To be honest, when I stumbled upon this site, if I had found only pictures of men wearing their kilts in only traditional ways, I would have likely spent a couple days learning a few things and then moved along.

And as for the gentleman part. I've participated in a few online forums over the years (most to do with sports performance) and if gentleman is more about how one treats others repectfully, more than anything else (and I believe it to be) than this forum has no shortage of gentleman. Next to the pictures and information, it's another big reason I keep logging in here.