Native Scots vs the scottish diaspora

[Sir William]

Many Scots are completely mystified by all this. Using myself as an example here, I just don't understand this "cousin" thing, ....Just because someone from Texas, North Island New Zealand, or, Western Australia has the same surname as me, well good for them, but they are not my "cousins"-----I know who my cousins are thank you....If you are an American then be an American, ....

I have encountered this attitude my entire life and the Scots, in this regard, are no different than the peoples of other nations. I routinely met people who had never left their home state, and in many cases had ventured no further than the next county. Thus, I can appreciate the fact that it is very difficult for those whose families have lived in one location for generations to understand the hunger of the descendants of immigrants for an ancestral home.

My experience is totally different from theirs and yours. By the time I was 18 I had lived in 19 different places, to include two European countries. The only time I saw my immediate relatives was when we moved from one location to another and visited them on the way (and then we had to go to 5 or more different states).

As I trace my genealogy, I find that my ancestors were nearly as mobile as I, with many living in the same locale for a less than a generation or two. But I have no native state; there is no place that I consider myself "from." There are only places where I have lived or and where my ancestors lived.

I was greatly surprised to learn I had "family" from Virginia, though 200 years separated us from the time they moved out in 1790 and I moved back in 1985. Ironically, they were Scots who came to Virginia by way of Pennsylvania, but in reality I am no more a Virginian or a Pennsylvanian than I am a Scot.

[clanciankent]

The "native" Scots or Irish or English don`t seem to worry too much about adopting American culture and dress-the our towns are filled with people wearing American baseball caps,"gangsta" necklaces and jewellery and using terms like "Feds" for the police.I say the diaspora have every right to their ancestors culture.

[RockyR]

I often see pictures / news clips of people in other countries wearing jeans... Often times not in the way that the cowboys originally wore them. Am I offended or flattered? No. It's just another country's interpretation of an American thing.

With the US presence in the Middle East and news coverage of the region, I see baseball caps with NY Yankee logos on them. I see American sports team tshirts. I see band (musician) shirts as well. Am I offended or flattered that someone who is relatively far removed from America would wear garb with such distinctly American logos? No. It's just someone doing their own thing in a different country who happens to like American things. Am I offended if I see them wearing it 'wrong'? No, so long as it's not perceived as disrespectful (burning a flag or something).

Just sayin'...

[RockyR]

The "native" Scots or Irish or English don`t seem to worry too much about adopting American culture and dress-the our towns are filled with people wearing American baseball caps,"gangsta" necklaces and jewellery and using terms like "Feds" for the police.I say the diaspora have every right to their ancestors culture.

You beat me to the same point, ClanCianKent.

With ABOSOLUTELY all due respect, I submit this statement: Perhaps as Americans, we're 'used to' the idea of other cultures borrowing from our pop culture, so it's not as big of an issue for us. That's not meant as an ethnocentirc statement or to be cocky or anything, just kind of thinking out loud.

[Brett]

My paternal family came to Canada from Scotland 3 generations ago, my paternal Grandmothers family 1 generation ago and my and my maternal Grandfather 2 generations ago. Almost all of them wore kilts, admittedly more for military purposes than daily dress. Since as far as I can remember both my grandmothers had tartan items all over the house in many different forms simply for the love of it and as items passed down through the family.

I view the kilt and the love of tartans a family tradition. I view the love of many things scottish as a family tradition. So I don't really view the kilt as soley belonging to those living in Scotland. They can claim it if they like, but if they do, given the fairly brief history of kilts and "family tartans" I think they suffer the same romantic notions they accuse decendents in other parts of the world of.

The best I can offer is that I will do my best to not make a mockery of the kilt when I wear it. It's the reason I came to this site to learn as much as I can.

As boldhighlander said: "I don't really feel I need to justify my wearing it, just as I don't feel compelled to justify the wearing of any other article of clothing I wear (rather kilted or not)." I don't think anyone else should either, wether born in Scotland, 2,3,4 generations removed, or no connection at all other than an appreciation for the garb.

To be honest, after reading many of the articles here and other places regarding the history of kilts, I almost feel a little silly wearing a "clan tartan". It appears that many clan tartans were simply made up and really don't have much history of being worn by people with that surname. I would imagine that with my family coming to Canada in the mid 19th century they probably had never even heard of McCallum tartan and if they wore plaids, were likely the tartan of whatever local mill produced near the Isle of Mull.

Given the history of the modern kilt and clan tartans, if I'm playing make-believe, scots dress-up when I don my kilt and argyle jacket than so are a great many scots when they do the same. I'm really ok with that, I think playing dress-up is fun and brings out the kid in all of us wether born in Scotland or anywhere else in the world.

[ANP3]

I think the biggest problem to over come is "nationality," and "ethincity," or "heritage." Over 50% of my ancestors were Scottish, or decendents of Scots. Therefore my HERITAGE is Scottish, but my NATIONALITY is American. When Immigrants, Scottish or otherwise came to America they were often grouped by their ethnic or national origin. New York, Boston, San Fransisco, Chicago all had Irish, German, Jewish neighborhoods, that were not always lived in by immigrants alone, many times it was their children and grandchildren who lived in the "________ neighborhood," and their children would be discriminated against simply for being Irish, for example. A simple google serch will reveal that Americans looking for work would be turned away, for being the decendents of Irish immigrants, "Irish need not apply," should be your search terms. Any way when Americans ID themselves with another nationality they are honoring where they came from, honoring their family, and it is a cultural norm in the "nation of immigrants," because we have always identified with, or forced to identify with, the nations of our origens. Some simple "googleing," will provide support for this, look Chinese in American west, Boston Irish, Ulster-Scots in America, Deerbourne mi, Japanese internment camps. National origin has always been part of the American identity.

[Phil]

Correct me here if I am wrong but my impression of the Scots diaspora is that they energetically worked to disappear into the population of their new country as quickly as possible. Existing populations have a habit of discriminating against 'newcomers' and they would have seen this and recognised the vital importance of losing their 'foreign-ness' (is that a word?) as quickly as possible. The fact that they spoke English and had a similar appearance to the majority would have helped and parents would take care that their children did not pick up any of the tainted expressions from their homeland which would immediately set them apart. I have met second generation immigrants who have no knowledge whatever of many words that their parents must have used without thinking and which would have given away their roots. Even the use of a simple 'outwith' by Jock betrays his Scottish background.
In this way they quickly became successful citizens, unencumbered by the prejudices suffered by other immigrant groups such as the Irish, Italians, Chinese to name but a few. I have no doubt too that it is not so long, and may even be the case today, that many with Scottish surnames believed themselves to be Irish and, knowing no better, turned out on St Paddy's day with the best of them.
So what has caused this re-awakening of a long-lost heritage I wonder? And what changes in society have allowed what was once regarded as a stigma to become a symbol of pride and honour, to be flaunted at every opprtunity.

[thescot]

What an interesting discussion, the kind of thing that keeps me on Xmarks.

As usual, Jock is honest and to the point. I appreciate his view and tend to have the same one with respect to my own place of abode. I find that cariacatures and minstrel immitations of southern U.S. folks abound. (Want to get the idea that a character is crooked or stupid? Give him an exagerated Southern accent.) Heck, we even do that ourselves, but it's best not to do it if you're not from around here.

But the fact is, as Jock pointed out, unless you travel to and esperience a locale, you can't evn begin to understand that locale and those people. And even then, you only begin; you never really "get it." As an ardent student of history, I found that I knew much more of Scottish history that the native Scots with whom I worked while in Ayrshire. But then, I can say the same of Americans with whom I work.

Being at least the 7th generation from the "old country," and being as "muttly" as Forrestermodern ever thought about, I am American born and bred, first, last, and probably always. But it doesn't prevent my appreciation or embrace of other cultures and places.

I love Scotland, plan to take a nice long trip there in 2013 for my 60th birthday if possible and buy that scotch for Jock I still owe. I love the romance of the myths, nearly all the people I ever knew very well, and I like kilts. Been facinated with them since the first time I saw Fred MacMurray wearing one on My Three Sons as a kid and had to ask my dad about it.

And I am firmly of the opinion that Scotland has influenced the history and culture of many places in the world out of all proportion to its size and population count. There's a whole bunch of reasons for that (which I won't go into here), and all of them are open to argument. But the fact is that many of us choose to indentify with, discuss, emulate, and/or visit Scotland, often not even knowing the great difference between lowland and highland Scotlan and Scots. Heck, James VI-I didn't even like the highlanders as I understand it. Didn't trust those folks.

It's kind of like being a Southerner in the U.S., and that's probably one of the reasons I've always like the Scots. The greatest history professor I ever knew once, only slightly jokingly, attributed much of the Southern orneriness and bellicose nature to the Gaelic blood so prevalent in the region. He, too, had Scots and Scoth-Irish blood.

As to flattery and such--naw, me neither. I wear kilts for may reasons, but mostly because I like to do so. I don't really need any justification.

[Bugbear]

Correct me here if I am wrong but my impression of the Scots diaspora is that they energetically worked to disappear into the population of their new country as quickly as possible. Existing populations have a habit of discriminating against 'newcomers' and they would have seen this and recognised the vital importance of losing their 'foreign-ness' (is that a word?) as quickly as possible. The fact that they spoke English and had a similar appearance to the majority would have helped and parents would take care that their children did not pick up any of the tainted expressions from their homeland which would immediately set them apart. I have met second generation immigrants who have no knowledge whatever of many words that their parents must have used without thinking and which would have given away their roots. Even the use of a simple 'outwith' by Jock betrays his Scottish background.
In this way they quickly became successful citizens, unencumbered by the prejudices suffered by other immigrant groups such as the Irish, Italians, Chinese to name but a few. I have no doubt too that it is not so long, and may even be the case today, that many with Scottish surnames believed themselves to be Irish and, knowing no better, turned out on St Paddy's day with the best of them.
So what has caused this re-awakening of a long-lost heritage I wonder? And what changes in society have allowed what was once regarded as a stigma to become a symbol of pride and honour, to be flaunted at every opprtunity.

Oddly enough, it was the Scots and interacting with people all over the world through this forum that reawakened or perhaps shed light on my New Mexican and Southwest heritage. We do, after all, inherit many things from the area, culture, and people with whom we interact over extended times, especially during childhood and youth.

[Meggers]

because unless you're an American Indian, or more correctly Native American, NOBODY in the U.S.A. is really "from here," if that makes any sense.

There are many theories that the first Native Americans traveled over here from Asia...so are they really "from here" too? Or were they just here first?

I have to say that I have stopped attributing people to land as though that particular bit of land bred the peopel themselves. Earth is just land that people have conquered and differnet people have conquered the same bits of earth in different times. European tribes have traveled in and out of differnet "countries," raping or marrying members of different groups all over Europe so, while we would like to think that some bits of land are "ours", they really arent. They are whoever had the land last or the longest.

I think the biggest problem to over come is "nationality," and "ethincity," or "heritage." Over 50% of my ancestors were Scottish, or decendents of Scots. Therefore my HERITAGE is Scottish, but my NATIONALITY is American.

^ What I tried to say with 3+ paragraphs. hahaha.