COA identity/info help

[flairball]

Hello. Its been quite awhile since I've last logged on, or posted in Xmarks. Glad to see it is still going strong.

I need some help. I've been doing some genealogical research, and have uncovered quite a surprise. Along with that surprise came an image of a COA. I have been trying to find out anything I can about it, but Google has thus far come up short, so I thought I'd try here.

[IMG][/IMG]

Here is what I know:

Herres is the surname of my g.grandfather. This line descended from Germany. He was a brother in The Franciscan Order T.O.R. My family knows next to nothing about him, as he and my g.grandmother divocred and my grandfather was adopted by his step-father and renamed.

I am thinking that this might be some type of Franciscan Order internal award, or recognition type of thing. The latin phrase being a clue. I'll be contacting them too.

Anyway, and insite would be appreciated.

[ctbuchanan]

Apparently there is a Harris family coat of arms (English)which contains three Hedgehogs as you show.

But there is also a Scottish Herries that uses the motto you show: Dominis Dedit and also shows the stags head on the COA.

http://www.scotclans.com/scottish_cl...s/history.html

Hope this helps.

[ctbuchanan]

My best guess is that the name is Scottish --- I got this from the Surname Database. I can't help you with the German bit.

http://www.surnamedb.com/Surname/herries

Herries
This is one of the famous old surnames of Scotland, although the origin is almost certainly not Celtic or Gaelic, but Norman-French. In the 12th century there was a recruiting drive by the king of Scotland who needed an instant army to keep internal order. Who better to recruit from but the descendants of the famous Norman Army which conquered England in 1066. Many of these people were granted lands in England, but there was never enough to go around, and later generations of younger sons found it necessary to earn their crust with their sword. In the this case it is claimed that Heris or Herries is a form of the Norman surname Heriz, a family who held lands in Nottinghamshire, England granted to them in 1066. If so the first recorded nameholder is probably William de Heriz, who served King David of Scotland (1124 - 1153), and seems to have been granted lands by him in Dumfries and Galloway, where the name is still associated in the 20th century. The link spelling is probably that of Richard Hereis who held lands in Edinburgh, granted to him by King Robert 1st, (1274 - 1329), whilst David Heris was the bailie of Finlay Ramsay in Bamffshire in 1483.

[Piipriker]

I looked up the Armorial Général and the Siebmacher (the one volume I have) and came up blank.
The name is also not mentioned in my books on name origins. So the probability of the COA being german is quite small, IMO.

[ctbuchanan]

One more clue for you. The hedgehogs in the COA came from the French/Norman origin of the name. The French word for hedgehog is 'herissons".

Also see: http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...on/herries.htm

Therefore, not knowing your source for the German link, I think I would say quite confidently that the drawing you show is some representation of a Herries family crest of some kind and that the name is almost certainly Scottish with an origin going back to the Norman French - which includes some the Barons of Vendome who use a very similar COA.

One last bit: as this is the XMTS and tartan is what we are all about, it would appear that your Herries family is entitled to wear the Maxwell Tartan.

[flairball]

Thanks for the help guys. This is getting very interesting. I've been able to trace that line back 6 generations from my grandfather. My g.g.f. was first generation American, before him, as far as I've been able to trace back, everyone was born in Germany. Of course my research could be flawed, so I'll double check, and I'll invest in a german language dictionary and dig deeper. Of course this could end up going way back if there is a Scottish connection. Does anyone know if there is a Germany/Scotland connection? (I didn't read all the info in the links yet, so if it's in there just say so and I'll read it thoroughly.)

[ctbuchanan]

@flairball - here's the thing. I'm only speculating on the drawing you posted up. It seems to me that the evidence related to the Scottish name is pretty strong. Now the question you need to try and answer is how did it end up in your family treasures?

Names are a very tricky business. For instance ancestors.com also lists the name Herres as German: this name is found Latinized as Henrici, so it presumably represents a patronymic based on a short form of Heinrich.

The mystery is why the drawing? Good luck on your search. Genealogy is a painstaking, often difficult but more often very rewarding undertaking.

As for German/Scottish connections they do of course exist. For instance over 30,000 Scots went to Germany to fight in the 30 years war (1618-1648). It would not be uncommon for some to have remained behind.

With your drawing you seem to have a tantalizing clue, or a red herring. Only research will tell. You can check this out as well:
http://www.electricscotland.com/hist...y/scotsndx.htm
Cheers.

[macwilkin]

Just a couple of points to remember:

1) in Scottish heraldic traditions, there is no such thing as a "family crest". Arms (of which the crest is only part of) belong to individuals, not entire surnames. The clansman's badge, for example, is actually the crest from the arms of the chief; the buckle & strap signifies that the wearer is a member of the clan and not the owner of the crest.

2) I am unaware of any Franciscan order granting arms. Individual Catholic Clerics may be granted (or assume) arms, but I can't say I've ever read of any group affiliated with the OFM granting arms. Grants of arms are usually made by a heraldic body, such as the Lyon Court.

I used to see this sort of thing quite a bit whilst working as a genealogy librarian; in the late 19th/early 20th century Americans tended to collect arms that were attributed to their surname; in fact, the arms were probably born by someone with the same surname, but may or may not have been related. I'm not trying to knock the OP in anyway, just offering some observations of a part-time student of the "gentle science" of heraldry.

Regards,

T.

[Piipriker]

I did some searching, because the name Herres did ring something. I remembered that we have a journalist in german TV with that name.

The name is most common in germany in the south-west, from the town of Trier south into the state Saarland and east along the Mosel river into the Eifel.
Trier and Saarland are located near/at the french border.

One origin for Herres may be a "place name" shortened from the village Herresbach. Those names are not unusual in germany. My last name Eichelberger is in the same catagory, meaning "the one from mount (berg) acorn (Eichel)".
A guess from me: Herres could also be a Huguenot name, like for example Hebert.

To the COA is cajunscot IMO spot on, I don't think it's a german COA.
In addition I have my doubts regarding the motto. I think it was drawn later to the COA. The style of the banner and the font don't match the overall design of the drawing. The banner is just too modern.

[ctbuchanan]

@Piipriker - I tend to agree with your assessment. It looks to me like many hand drawn items I've come across in family histories. With the OP saying that his Herres family has been in Germany for so many generations I think it is a stretch to link it to the Scottish surname of Herries.

It almost seems that whoever made the drawing may just have been having some fun pulling elements from Heraldic Achievements from possibly English and Scottish origins.

The Herries in Scotland are still to this day heavily concentrated in Dumfries but unless the OP can find a link to that area it seems a tenuous connection.

All fun just the same.