More on Septs

[MacSpadger]

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, sept comes into the English language from French and before that, from Latin. The first documented use was in 1517. Sept refers to a division of a nation, tribe, or clan, and was originally used in reference to Ireland.

Yes, I have the OED and it says "Occas. used by anthropologists (after Sir H. Maine, Early Hist. Institutions, 1875) for a clan consisting of those who are, or at least are believed to be, descendants of a common ancestor", so the 1875 date fits in exactly with my earlier posts about the concept coming into use during this time.

I suppose the question here is what would you call a real connection? If there is a tartan specific to one's surname, that's easy enough. For a sept connection, one could do an extensive genealogy to see whether or not their family name actually came from, or had any association with, the clan that a tartan represents.

I've done all that, but may be in the minority here.

Or you could skip all that and just join the clan association/society, ask for permission from the chief, etc.

In truth, I strongly suspect this may be nearer to how it was done than any family ties.

As I understand it though, the history of Scottish tartans being recorded, mass produced, and associated with specific clans goes back only as far as the 19th century.

Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.

On a basic level, just going with what the tartan industry says is your clan/sept sett is actually quite "traditional."

If you want an unassailable link, you can design and register your own, or wear a district tartan

I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

[Peter Crowe]

The older I get, the more I think just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel aboot honouring some lang deid' cheil' fah' widnae' ken ye onywie, and even if he did, he widnae' cross o'er the road tae' gie' ye' the time o' day.

I quite agree and my father's family in Macduff would express it very like you wrote it.

[creagdhubh]

I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

Well said and I agree!

[xman]

I'm not sure that your assessment of the early historians being inventors of sept fiction is entirely fair. I know when i read about clans and septs for the first time I was struck by the many inconsistencies. nowhere have I read that "All Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion" for example, only that they are. Leek would also be listed as sept of Can Cabbage as well which creates some confusion sometimes. Sure, it would have been easier to understand at first blush if I had read that "some Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion", it would be more precise. After some reading, however, my natural assumption was that there was a lot of grey area and movement between clans. The clan structure is of course gone now and it's all historical context. Perhaps I'm missing something, but that's how I've interpreted the situation.

[CMcG]

Yes, I have the OED and it says "Occas. used by anthropologists (after Sir H. Maine, Early Hist. Institutions, 1875) for a clan consisting of those who are, or at least are believed to be, descendants of a common ancestor", so the 1875 date fits in exactly with my earlier posts about the concept coming into use during this time.

I'm looking at the online version and right after the quote you've included, it goes on to list 10 quotes with dates between 1517 and 1868. It would appear to have had some currency before Sir H. Maine, though perhaps it really gained steam after him?

Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1700's, and their tartan pattern book was published in 1819.

I've read that Wilson's of Bannockburn began in the 1760's, which was still during Proscription. But it is quite fascinating to see how entrenched the idea of clan tartans has become, despite the fact that tartan lists attached to names didn't come until the 1800s.

...
I am fine with who I am, as I said earlier, just wear fit ye' bluddy well like, but dinnae' invent nae' spiel. It's just that the more I look for evidence of "septs", the less I find. Clans were quite simply communities, only the elite within them had blood ties, and like all communities they changed with the passage of time. People came and went, dynasties crumbled, time brought cheviots, stags, black, black oil and the people dispersed. "Septs" just appears to be an early form of branding, IMHO.

Sounds good to me And while we're wearing what we bloody well like, I'll take a "sept" tartan over a megacorporation's brand, any day of the week!

[Nick the DSM]

It all belongs to the same clan anyways, right? Well, I won't say for every clan or sept, but speaking for my own experience my family is a Gillmore, which is a "sept" of Morrison. I'll happily wear Morrison tartans and not be bothered with it. Don't need to invent a Gilmore tartan.

I think septs were created to help distinguish what names go with whatever clan. That's what I can figure any how. Also a marketing ploy, but I'm not going to get into that. Maybe it's to put a connection to whatever clan they are branched off of? I'm not saying people look for legitimacy but a grasp on clan connection...maybe?

[Tobus]

I'm not sure that your assessment of the early historians being inventors of sept fiction is entirely fair. I know when i read about clans and septs for the first time I was struck by the many inconsistencies. nowhere have I read that "All Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion" for example, only that they are. Leek would also be listed as sept of Can Cabbage as well which creates some confusion sometimes. Sure, it would have been easier to understand at first blush if I had read that "some Leeks are sept of Clan MacOnion", it would be more precise. After some reading, however, my natural assumption was that there was a lot of grey area and movement between clans. The clan structure is of course gone now and it's all historical context. Perhaps I'm missing something, but that's how I've interpreted the situation.

This is how I've always seen it as well. My own Kilpatricks are listed as a sept of Colquhoun as well as Douglas. Neither claims to be the sole clan that all Kilpatricks belong to. Rather, it is a simple matter of stating that there were people with the name Kilpatrick associated with both clans at some point. (Don't even get me started on the fact that the first Colquhoun was in fact a Kilpatrick!) And there may be other clans who had Kilpatricks under their protection, or as tenants on their lands. So it is indeed folly to think that an 'official' list of sept names is the be-all, end-all of clan associations. Sadly, though, for those of us who cannot prove our lineage back that far, it's all we've got.

[creagdhubh]

So it is indeed folly to think that an 'official' list of sept names is the be-all, end-all of clan associations. Sadly, though, for those of us who cannot prove our lineage back that far, it's all we've got.

Agreed, yet one can argue that the Chief (recognised by Lord Lyon) of a particular Highland clan or Lowland family, has indeed approved an 'official' 'sept' list. His or her knowledge of his or her own clan, extended family/branches and the associated families in which have gradually become 'a part' of the clan structure and organisation through the centuries, should be absolute - ideally (and perhaps romantically) speaking of course. Then again, most Chiefs authorise clan membership if a person or persons are simply interested in Scottish heritage, or have some vague, indirect link to the clan. In comparison to Scottish clan structure of the past and during its 'golden age,' it is rather obvious that things have changed quite a bit in our modern era - for the better I'm sure - no more feuds and skirmishes! Hahaha!

Cheers,

[Burly Brute]

I think the biggest reason for association among Americans is that we feel a distance, and we do in fact "want to know". However, I think part of that is due to the many cultures we have in America. For me personally, it is so diverse here that when I see others celebrating their heritage, I too wish to celebrate mine. The way I got from point A to where I am now, point B, was through this search. I began with my grandparents who originated from the south, and through research I narrowed my primary heritage to be from the British Isles, namely Scotland. So, currently I enjoy and celebrate this heritage, along with the surrounding regions simply to have something to claim, and hold on to, and hopefully pass on to my children along with our brief American history.

[Bugbear]

I was playing the septs game for a while back when I was looking into my ill-documented ancestry; trying to match sir names to some sort of clan. I thought I had a sept of MacMillan as a branch of my tree for a time; I'm sure they were worried. That was looking backward, though, and by having to associate spellings and so on. Turned out, I have no evidence of any Scottish ancestors. I'm sure the MacMillan clan is relieved, though they treated me very kindly throughout the whole ordeal.
Perhaps it is for the best.