Kilting in Church - Sgian dubh?

[davidg]

Chas

Nobody is making anything up. There may be no written rules about bearing arms in church but there sure is a LONG standing prohibition. Remember that church and state are two separate things and you do not need the state to write down laws as to what you will or will not do in church. However if you read my post again I have stated quite clearly that nobody is really bothered by this any more anyway so there is no problem

As to the law you have quoted you have only quoted part. We can always find something to support what we wish to believe if we try hard enough and I have no particular desire to prove what I say. I used to trade in sgian dubhs and I have NEVER seen a sharpened one yet. I could name all of the major companies producing them unsharpened but, again, I won't just to prove a point. I could also find the legislation that requires a special licence for Scottish vendors to sell anything with a blade over 6 inches long but I won't. You can look for it if you want to but please don't suggest I'm making things up

The reality with the 6 inch licensing is that no major sgian dubh manufacturer is now making them with blades longer than the 6 inch limit. The reason being that the highland outfitters simply do not want the expense of obtaining a licence. That in turn gives further legal problems. If they do sell a longer blade sgian dubh, they and the purchaser are breaking the law. Now, read this carefully. It is not against the law to wear a sgian dubh with a blade longer than 6 inches, but it is illegal to wear a sgian dubh with a blade longer than 6 inches if it has been purchased illegally

[MacRobert's Reply]

For the avoidance of misunderstanding, I use the term "general rule" in my posts as the antithesis of “the exceptions”. I did not intend to imply that there was some written rule in an official document but that it was and is customary or normal practice not to bear arms in church. The modern exceptions, such as military funerals, and the historical exceptions, such as the military orders and the Cameronians stand out as clear departures from normal practice. Lots of URLs for historical theology covering the rationales for this but they are outside the scope of this forum.

[Dale Seago]

Hmm. . .What if one IS a modular weapons system with the capability of autonomously adding or subtracting components as necessary without changing its fundamental nature?

Or am I overthinking the "weapons in church" thing?

[MacRobert's Reply]

That kind of thinking, Dale, is worthy of a moral philosopher, theologian or the Goon Show's Spike Milligan!

[Seawolf]

Feasgar math gentlemen,

I have worn my sgian dubh to church with no incident and no ill effects or comment. On the occasion that I am wearing trousers due to some OSHA quirk, I always carry a pocket knife, it is a tool. Maybe it's a military thing. I have carried since then and to be without just doesn't feel right, like something is missing...A matter of preference perhaps.

Anyway.....Slàinte mhor a h-uile là a chi 's nach fhaic.
Great health to you every day that I see you and every day that I don't.

Seawolf

[creagdhubh]

hmm. . .what if one is a modular weapons system with the capability of autonomously adding or subtracting components as necessary without changing its fundamental nature?

Or am i overthinking the "weapons in church" thing?

Budo Ryu Daikomyousai 武道流大光明祭, perhaps?

[Zardoz]

I have one of those 'unsharpened' sgian dubhs, it was a gift my mother in-law got in Scotland. It is the fanciest and likely most expensive one I own. But I think it's just sad that it's basically a nice looking handle with a "blade" that isn't even useful as a letter opener.

[Singlemalt]

I think it is a matter of attitude and discretion. Like others here I have carried a pocket knife virtually every day of my life since I was a small boy. I have never considered that I was being "armed". I certainly did not put it there thinking I would use it to do any harm to anyone or even defend myself. It is just a small and very useful tool. A sgian is a pocket knife for those without pockets. I would wear one to all the same places I would go with a pocket knife and that would include a church but obviously not an airport or other area of high security.

[BEEDEE]

I don't wear a sgian to my synagogue on Sabbath, as it is not appropriate to carry either a weapon or a tool there on the day of rest. Other days, I have no problem doing so. The Lord knows I am both a workman and a warrior, and a knife is appropriate to me in both roles. I do not wear one in a church, unless I am sure the parishioners are ok with it, and I cannot think of a church where I would have that certainty. <grin>

I'm with Geoff here, I don't wear my SD in synagogue, even though it is a Reform Temple. The only time I have worn one in synagogue was for my wedding.

Brian

[davidg]

I think it is a matter of attitude and discretion. Like others here I have carried a pocket knife virtually every day of my life since I was a small boy. I have never considered that I was being "armed". I certainly did not put it there thinking I would use it to do any harm to anyone or even defend myself. It is just a small and very useful tool. A sgian is a pocket knife for those without pockets. I would wear one to all the same places I would go with a pocket knife and that would include a church but obviously not an airport or other area of high security.

Up to a point it's attitude and discretion but knife law here in the UK is now very tight. As a Scout Leader before 1990 it was customary for my boys to carry knives, but then the law changed and this "pocket knife" everyone speaks of became taboo. Yes, the law here may technically allow such a knife provided the blade is within certain dimensions but it is still likely to be confiscated if the police see it. Instructions to Scout Leaders then by the police was that ANY knife must be placed at the bottom of the boy's rucksack where it could not be accessed until they got to camp. Using it, or even just showing it, in a public place would simply lead to conflict with the police

I recall an incident a few years ago when a fairly young guy (early twenties) was set upon by thugs and tried to defend himself with a pocket knife. He was jailed for it on the basis that carrying a knife at all in his pocket at all meant he intended to use it. The concept of carrying knives over here is still a little different to the other side of the pond and, I think, about to get worse especially now that sgian dubhs have been brought into the loop and the Scottish Government are aiming for zero tolerance of all knives. Have a look at some of the advertised Hamilton & Inches silver sgians and you will see what I mean. They are not available for purchase in the UK, only for export overseas, because the blades are too long