Scots-Irish

[McElmurry]

But how do North Americans choose which ancestry they are going to identify with? I've seen people on this forum saying their link to Scotland or Ireland, is their great great grandfather.
But that means they could have a possible 15 other nationalities which they are just as connected to as the Scottish/Irish link.

Granted that's an exaggerated case, but what makes some nationalists more 'desirable' than others? Surely anyone claiming heritage that far back, is going to have just as much or more English blood? Yet I've never heard of English-Americans.

Well if I let my government classify me I am “non-Hispanic white” which make up about 40 percent of the California population. Or I can try to classify myself like in this thread.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...estions-59644/

[Blackrose87]

Well if I let my government classify me I am “non-Hispanic white” which make up about 40 percent of the California population. Or I can try to classify myself like in this thread.

http://www.xmarksthescot.com/forum/f...estions-59644/

In the northern Irish census, if you're white your only options are 'white' or 'Irish traveller'
Makes things a lot simpler

[Blackrose87]

Blackrose, I do not think you will find people speaking Ulster Scots, per se, but I am willing to bet there will be words or phrases that are cognates in local usage.

It seems strange that with such a large number of Americans having Ulster-Scots heritage, there are little or no speakers of the language.
I know theres a lot of debate whether Ullans is a language in its own right, or only a dialect,(although the St. Andrews agreement has given its official status as a language). Iwould have thought that with the many heritage and cultural societies in America, there would be someone promoting an interest in it.

According to the Boord o' Ulstèr-Scotch there's 35 - 100,000 speakers of Ullans in Ireland, and while the actual amount is contested, I would have thought there would be at least some interest in it in North America.

[ForresterModern]

"It seems strange that with such a large number of Americans having Ulster-Scots heritage, there are little or no speakers of the language.
I know theres a lot of debate whether Ullans is a language in its own right, or only a dialect,(although the St. Andrews agreement has given its official status as a language). Iwould have thought that with the many heritage and cultural societies in America, there would be someone promoting an interest in it.

According to the Boord o' Ulstèr-Scotch there's 35 - 100,000 speakers of Ullans in Ireland, and while the actual amount is contested, I would have thought there would be at least some interest in it in North America.". Quote from blackrose

You might think so, but yo have to remember geography over here in the new world was a huge factor in spreading those scots-irish across broad areas and many states, each of which were individually larger than either Scotland or Ireland, let alone the smaller area of Ulster. They were isolated physically from one another and intermixed with other cultures so forced into the common language of English, and much but not all of their individual heritage diluted due to physical distances and cultural diversity. Some Scottish, Irish, and scots-Irish pieces of tradition remain, as described above, but they are few and far between and have been assimilated into the regional cultures where they originally settled.

[Dale-of-Cedars]

It seems that a lot of North Americans use the term for your situation rather than its historical meaning.
Although can I ask, if your ancestors from Glasgow instead came from, say Paris, would you describe yourself as French-Irish?

I probably would.
But the genetic meaning to me is quite as valid as any other; more-so in that as an adoptee I had no background before I discovered it in middle age, and so I grabbed onto my heritage with both hands when I found out I was of Scottish-Irish stock on my mother's side. The other half of my heritage is a mystery still, and must needs await genetic testing.

[Bugbear]

Sorry, MacLowlife, not sure what came over me to ask that question.

Blackrose87, you make a good point about the family trees spreading across all sorts of locations. More and more, I am thinking of myself as being of American heritage, an American lump, rather than Irish or German, or English etc.
It worries me, though, that some might use that as a reason to exclude me from parts of my own culture. You don't have the genes* meant ancestors*, you don't belong in this public event…

* I should have said "ancestors" rather than genes.

[Blackrose87]

Sorry, MacLowlife, not sure what came over me to ask that question.

Blackrose87, you make a good point about the family trees spreading across all sorts of locations. More and more, I am thinking of myself as being of American heritage, an American lump, rather than Irish or German, or English etc.
It worries me, though, that some might use that as a reason to exclude me from parts of my own culture. You don't have the genes, you don't belong in this public event…

I dont think you would really be excluded from some events. I take it that no body goes around at a highland games with a notepad, checking everyones family tree so they can prove their 'right' to be there.

I just find it very interesting that decisions seem to be made to associate oneselve with a certain country's culture, but not another's. Especially in America, where the connection is separated by a great amount of time and distance.

I associate more with my Irish side than my Ulster-Scots due to their association with religon and politics in modern day Ireland which i grew up. The segration of the north made me wary of the Ulster-Scots side, and it wasnt until I left the country that I had any interest in it at all.
But had i been born 4th generation American, I wouldnt have these influences, and I'm not really sure how i would decide which culture and heritage I would associate myself most with.

[MacLowlife]

I am reminded of one of the perennial refrains of Myles na Gopaleen:

"He was a speaker of Irish before it was either popular or profitable."

Not only is Ullans neither of those things in these parts, it is largely unheard of. I am guessing more people know what Klingon is.

I note with some interest that, of the three examples of Ullans poetry cited on the wikipedia page, none was written by a man born before my Scots Irish ancestors came to America. That is, while Hugh Porter and Robert Huddleston were writing poems in Ullans ( not yet called that) the second generation of Witherspoons were carving out an existence some 75 miles from Charles Town.

[Lyle1]

But had i been born 4th generation American, I wouldnt have these influences, and I'm not really sure how i would decide which culture and heritage I would associate myself most with.

Many Americans can not trace their bloodlines back 4 generation, and 4 generations would probably not get you back to the early 1700's, the time of the large influx of Ulster-Scots. You can only have a cultural heritage if you are aware of it, and it helps to have been raised in an environment that encouraged respect for that heritage. I identify with those cultures that I was exposed to when I was growing up, whether I had a blood tie to a particular culture or not. I only learned that I descended from several immigrant Ulster-Scot families in the past year or two, so, though I find the ancestry interesting, I have no sense of sharing a cultural heritage with those ancestors.

Don't over think the "American experience or philosophy." Most of us simply accept our culture (way of life might be a better term) without worrying about justifying it. It simply is what it is, and it isn't the same for everyone.

[MacLowlife]

Sorry, MacLowlife, not sure what came over me to ask that question.

Blackrose87, you make a good point about the family trees spreading across all sorts of locations. More and more, I am thinking of myself as being of American heritage, an American lump, rather than Irish or German, or English etc.
It worries me, though, that some might use that as a reason to exclude me from parts of my own culture. You don't have the genes* meant ancestors*, you don't belong in this public event…

* I should have said "ancestors" rather than genes.

Somebody asked a question, I didn't know what to say
somebody asked a question, I didn't know just what to say
If you've never had that problem, you musta been born yesterday.

Current academic-political theories choose to discount the contributions of other cultures than enslaved ( and formerly enslaved) Africans to the Blues. However, you may find similar elements in traditional music from other sources, including the Appalachian music that derives from Celtic sources. Call -and-response, laments, and the AAB rhyme form above certainly exist in several apparently unrelated traditions. I will leave it to you, McBug, to support any connections...