Scots-Irish

[Bugbear]

Somebody asked a question, I didn't know what to say
somebody asked a question, I didn't know just what to say
If you've never had that problem, you musta been born yesterday.

Current academic-political theories choose to discount the contributions of other cultures than enslaved ( and formerly enslaved) Africans to the Blues. However, you may find similar elements in traditional music from other sources, including the Appalachian music that derives from Celtic sources. Call -and-response, laments, and the AAB rhyme form above certainly exist in several apparently unrelated traditions. I will leave it to you, McBug, to support any connections...

I suppose one could point to the role of Spiritual music on the blues, and that would have some connection to the subject of this thread. I only studied Jazz in college, and that is why I was asking you, MacLowlife.
I am a pesky little sugar ant among giants, who are very well learned in history, as far as this forum goes. I know nothing.

[McElmurry]

I just find it very interesting that decisions seem to be made to associate oneselve with a certain country's culture, but not another's. Especially in America, where the connection is separated by a great amount of time and distance.

But had i been born 4th generation American, I wouldnt have these influences, and I'm not really sure how i would decide which culture and heritage I would associate myself most with.

As far as choosing to associate with a particular portion of my heritage related to kilt wearing I will give you an example.

I decided I wanted to get a kilt. At this point I am just a citizen of the US exercising my freedom of expression; it doesn’t have anything to do with heritage. The question then becomes which style and pattern of fabric. My wife and I went to a local Scottish Festival and decided we like the traditional tartan kilts. So my choices of tartan become: German-American based on my surname; Ulster, County Down, Murray, or Morrison based on my middle name; various states including Idaho, Arkansas, and Kentucky; or some more distant Scottish relative; or other universal tartans.

I ordered over a dozen swatches and mulled over my decision. At the end I chose Morrison Red muted and joined the Clan Morrison Society of North America. So while I started the process in a manner typical of my country, I ended up selecting my first kilt in a very “Scottish” way, including a consultation with Nana.

Now that is not to say I won’t get an Ulster kilt at some point in the future. It would be downright un-American to own just one kilt. Now if I can just find a kilted Moravian trombone band……

[Blackrose87]

I am reminded of one of the perennial refrains of Myles na Gopaleen:

"He was a speaker of Irish before it was either popular or profitable."

Not only is Ullans neither of those things in these parts, it is largely unheard of. I am guessing more people know what Klingon is.

I did say the figure of 35,000-100,000 speakers is contested, but even at its lower limit it could hardly be classified as unheard of. Given that the whole island only has a population of just over 6 million, and Ulster only ~1.8million, the figure is quite high.
The language also has quite a bit of media attention due to its political connections. It was mentioned specifically in both the St. Andrews agreement and the Good Friday agreement, one of the most important documents in Irish history. I really don't think that it could be considered unheard of.

I note with some interest that, of the three examples of Ullans poetry cited on the wikipedia page, none was written by a man born before my Scots Irish ancestors came to America. That is, while Hugh Porter and Robert Huddleston were writing poems in Ullans ( not yet called that) the second generation of Witherspoons were carving out an existence some 75 miles from Charles Town.

Yes, but it does originate from Scots, of which there is poetry back to the 14th century. It is widely considered a dialect of Scots, which any planters who came to Ulster would have spoke.

[Detroitpete]

"Does it have any connection to the Ulster-Scots in Ireland, or is does it describe a completely different group of people I'm unaware of?"

My understanding, both through family history and my understanding of Irish and American History, especially concerning emigration to the Virginias, that yes, we're talking about Ulster Scots. Interesting point of fact: The Augusta Stone Church in Virginia is the oldest Presbyterian church in Virginia (1740) and was put in place by Ulster Scots/Scot-Irish. Their parishoners speak proudly of their 'Scot-Irish' heritage.

[ctbuchanan]

@blackrose87 "I just find it very interesting that decisions seem to be made to associate oneselve with a certain country's culture, but not another's. Especially in America, where the connection is separated by a great amount of time and distance."

This discussion comes up often on this and other similar forums of Scottish interest. I think it would be a mistake to assume that many people overstate their connection to Scotland in the construct you so rightly stated. When it comes time for a highland games or a Burns supper they put on the kilts and enjoy themselves. But in my opinion it is more an avocation, something they enjoy a few days of the year. My guess is if you walked into their home it would be as American as 4th of July, apple pie and the Superbowl or NASCAR.

[Blackrose87]

As far as choosing to associate with a particular portion of my heritage related to kilt wearing I will give you an example.

I decided I wanted to get a kilt. At this point I am just a citizen of the US exercising my freedom of expression; it doesn’t have anything to do with heritage. The question then becomes which style and pattern of fabric. My wife and I went to a local Scottish Festival and decided we like the traditional tartan kilts. So my choices of tartan become: German-American based on my surname; Ulster, County Down, Murray, or Morrison based on my middle name; various states including Idaho, Arkansas, and Kentucky; or some more distant Scottish relative; or other universal tartans.

I ordered over a dozen swatches and mulled over my decision. At the end I chose Morrison Red muted and joined the Clan Morrison Society of North America. So while I started the process in a manner typical of my country, I ended up selecting my first kilt in a very “Scottish” way, including a consultation with Nana.

Now that is not to say I won’t get an Ulster kilt at some point in the future. It would be downright un-American to own just one kilt. Now if I can just find a kilted Moravian trombone band……

I suppose for the majority of people here in Scotland, their first kilt is a very different experience, and don't have such a variety to choose from.
Not being Scottish, I'm not an expert on the subject by any means, but any of my friends tend to know the tartan associated with thier family and wear that.


Even with my own first kilt, I had already limited my selection down to only a few before I even started looking.
Although I'm Scots descended through my father being an Ulster-Scot, I consider myself Irish. So automatically I ruled out any Scottish tartans. My choices left were a tartan representing my country, province or county. I chose the Irish National for my first kilt, and then I got an Ulster tartan.

[MacLowlife]

UNHEARD OF...

In "these parts", i.e., the Southeastern US. I do not doubt or dispute that it enjoys some currency in the British Isles, but here among the diaspora, not really. I can recite the entirety of the Ode to a Haggis. I know more than one joke with Robert Burns as the subject, including a fun tale by the late Frank Muir. When I visiteed his house at Dumfries, I learned that the ticket taker had the same surname as mine. I know the difference between Gaelic and Gallic. I have toured distilleries and have traveled the Speyside way. I have visited Dundalk and Killarney. But I had no notion of Ullans before this thread. None.

[guardsman]

well put jock, but where were his parents from. Jesus was born in a barn, He wasnt a horse! Cheers

[Blackrose87]

UNHEARD OF...

In "these parts", i.e., the Southeastern US. I do not doubt or dispute that it enjoys some currency in the British Isles, but here among the diaspora, not really. I can recite the entirety of the Ode to a Haggis. I know more than one joke with Robert Burns as the subject, including a fun tale by the late Frank Muir. When I visiteed his house at Dumfries, I learned that the ticket taker had the same surname as mine. I know the difference between Gaelic and Gallic. I have toured distilleries and have traveled the Speyside way. I have visited Dundalk and Killarney. But I had no notion of Ullans before this thread. None.

I'll have to take your word for it. Growing up in the north, the Ulster-Scots language has always been something I've been aware of, even though I had no interest in it whatsoever at the time.
It seems that outside Ireland, the Ulster-Scots language and culture is pretty much unknown and unheard of. It seems that the amount of money put into the Ulster-Scots agency may be a bit of a waste, as it seems only people who live here no about it.
I suppose that fact that it is on quite a few government or public signs would only be noticed by people here.
I would have I guess unless your interested in northern Ireland politics and history, youre unlikely to know anything about the language.

[celticpride]

my ancestor was from scotland and settled in a area around donegal ireland about 1650. in 1720 his grandson married a irish lady by the name of connor and had one son of scottish & irish descent then headed for america. that scottish/irish son was listed as one of the irish officers who fought at bunker hill (breed hill). while in america his offspring married into other irish families like carley, dorsey, tuttle and so on... now our family has strong scottish roots as the name is found in several places in scotland but also has left its mark in donegal and near dublin. after 9 generations we consider ourself americans, my question is would my family's heritage be scot/irish or irish?