Scots-Irish

[Blackrose87]

my ancestor was from scotland and settled in a area around donegal ireland about 1650. in 1720 his grandson married a irish lady by the name of connor and had one son of scottish & irish descent then headed for america. that scottish/irish son was listed as one of the irish officers who fought at bunker hill (breed hill). while in america his offspring married into other irish families like carley, dorsey, tuttle and so on... now our family has strong scottish roots as the name is found in several places in scotland but also has left its mark in donegal and near dublin. after 9 generations we consider ourself americans, my question is would my family's heritage be scot/irish or irish?

I would say you have Irish heritage.
The Ulster-Scots in Ireland don't consider themselves to be Scottish. They're Irish with Scottish ancestors. Your ancestor would have came over during at the plantation, and so subsequent children would have been Ulster-Scots.
So I suppose you could consider yourself to be of Ulster-Scots heritage or Irish, but I wouldn't say Scots.

I guess it depends on your own preference, and the influence te cultures have had on you. As I said before my father is an Ulster-Scot from mid-Antrim, and that where his family have been since the plantation. But I was brought up as Irish, and that's what I identify with.

[Blackrose87]

I have toured distilleries and have traveled the Speyside way. I have visited Dundalk and Killarney. But I had no notion of Ullans before this thread. None.

Sorry, but I don't understand the logic here. Speyside, Dundalk and Killarney aren't in Ulster, so obviously the Ulster-Scots language wouldn't have any official presence there.


I wasn't suggesting that it is commonly used outside Ulster. In Scotland, I assume you noticed the presence of Scots? And while in Leinster and Munster, you noticed the presence of Gaeilge? I think that if you had visited Ulster, you would have at least been aware of Ulster-Scots, even if you didn't know what it was.

[Guinness>water]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have greatly enjoyed reading it.

I guess I fit among the many others here, my last name (McCormick) is found both in Scotland and Ireland but I am unable to find my ancestor from across the sea. I highly suspect that he went from Scotland to Ulster and then to America. So again, what am I? Scot, Irish, Scot-Irish? Who knows!

I chose to join a Scottish clan and enjoy celebrating my Scottish(?) ancestry.

[Blackrose87]

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I have greatly enjoyed reading it.

I guess I fit among the many others here, my last name (McCormick) is found both in Scotland and Ireland but I am unable to find my ancestor from across the sea. I highly suspect that he went from Scotland to Ulster and then to America. So again, what am I? Scot, Irish, Scot-Irish? Who knows!

I chose to join a Scottish clan and enjoy celebrating my Scottish(?) ancestry.

I suppose I do fall in the same boat as well. I've always assume my father's family came from Scotland, due to their Religon and the fact that they've lived in a very Ulster-Scots area of Ireland for a few hundred years.

But my surname is derived from Old Irish, so could be either Scottish or Irish. And while the name is found around Dundee and Aberdeen, it's also found in areas of Ireland outside Ulster.
On tracing back my family tree, we've only been able to get as far back as 1780, in which time I'm the first male to be born outside a small town in Antrim. So we still don't haveroof that the family were planted from Scotland.

So I don't really know if the family's Ulster-scots or Irish. But as I said before, due to Religon and geography, I've always considered myself Irish and I'm happy with that.

[John_Carrick]

Next year I will have notched up 9 years living in Northern Ireland in a town that is in the Ulster Scots "linguasphere" . I have seen Ulster Scots used in job adverts in the newspaper and I have seen some programmes in Ulster Scots on BBC Northern Ireland. Could anyone pinpoint an area where one goes to hear Ulster Scots being spoken on a day to day basis in a natural community setting because I have never ever heard it spoken and I do travel around the country. I should be genuinely delighted to find one.
John

[MacLowlife]

Sorry, but I don't understand the logic here. Speyside, Dundalk and Killarney aren't in Ulster, so obviously the Ulster-Scots language wouldn't have any official presence there.


I wasn't suggesting that it is commonly used outside Ulster. In Scotland, I assume you noticed the presence of Scots? And while in Leinster and Munster, you noticed the presence of Gaeilge? I think that if you had visited Ulster, you would have at least been aware of Ulster-Scots, even if you didn't know what it was.

My point, perhaps frivolously made, was that I am more than just a guy who has bought a kilt- I have visited Scotland and Ireland. I have a nodding acquaintance with many aspects of Scots Culture and some of Irish culture, including some literary culture. Yet, as an American of Scots-Irish descent, however you define that term ( Ulster Scots, or other Scottish AND other Irish) I have no familiarity with Ullans. I would place myself in the top 15-25 percent of culturally aware Scots Irish Americans and my awareness does not reach to Ullans. I believe it is esoteric and obscure beyond its native geographical borders. I have not noticed others who are similarly situated ( David Pope, Forrester Modern, Matt, et al.) speaking out of their familiarity with the language.

Do other Scots Irish American XMarkers have a greater familiarity than mine?

[Blackrose87]

Next year I will have notched up 9 years living in Northern Ireland in a town that is in the Ulster Scots "linguasphere" . I have seen Ulster Scots used in job adverts in the newspaper and I have seen some programmes in Ulster Scots on BBC Northern Ireland. Could anyone pinpoint an area where one goes to hear Ulster Scots being spoken on a day to day basis in a natural community setting because I have never ever heard it spoken and I do travel around the country. I should be genuinely delighted to find one.
John

I don't think there are areas were Ulster-Scots is spoken exclusively, similiar to a Gaeltacht. But there are areas where a higher percentage speak it, so there are poetry and story nights in Ulster-Scots.
My grandfather is from Ahoghill, and while he doesn't speak it day to day, the local church prints its bulletins in Ulster-Scots and has similar get togethers where the language is spoken.
In Comber, there is an Ulster-Scots primary school, although the last I heard it was closing due to budget cuts.
I'd say Down, Mid-Antrim and east Donegal would be your best bet to find some of these community groups, or indeed find people who speak the langauge day to day.

[Blackrose87]

My point, perhaps frivolously made, was that I am more than just a guy who has bought a kilt- I have visited Scotland and Ireland. I have a nodding acquaintance with many aspects of Scots Culture and some of Irish culture, including some literary culture. Yet, as an American of Scots-Irish descent, however you define that term ( Ulster Scots, or other Scottish AND other Irish) I have no familiarity with Ullans. I would place myself in the top 15-25 percent of culturally aware Scots Irish Americans and my awareness does not reach to Ullans. I believe it is esoteric and obscure beyond its native geographical borders. I have not noticed others who are similarly situated ( David Pope, Forrester Modern, Matt, et al.) speaking out of their familiarity with the language.

Do other Scots Irish American XMarkers have a greater familiarity than mine?

Yes, I suppose it is esoteric and obscure, as you put it. Although it is very much a part of the northern Irish culture.
As I said before, I have little knowledge or even interest in the language, as I was born and brought up 'on the other side of the tracks'. But it has had an undeniable presence when I was growing up, and still does. There are regular shows in Ulster-Scots on both the BBC channels and UTV, and I have seen some on the gaeilge channel T na G.
Certain areas have road signs in the language, as do all government buildings.

The fact is, you can't read any northern Irish newspaper without something about Ulster-Scots being mentioned every other day.(except maybe An Phoblacht )
I mentioned before, it is mentioned in both the Good Friday Agreement and the St. Andrews agreement in equal footing with gaeilge.
Yes, it isn't as popular as Gaeilge is amongst Americans, but in reality there isn't a great difference in fluent speakers here. 4.7% of the population speak Irish fluently, and 2% speak Ulster-Scots.

So, I can't see how anyone with more than a glancing interest in northern Irish politics and history couldn't be at least aware of the language.

I'll take your word for it that the language didn't survive the boat trip to America, but I find it hard to believe that anyone with an active interest in northern Ireland would be oblivious to Ulster-Scots.

[ForresterModern]

I once heard the term Ullans in another thread some time ago, but never again until this thread, and all I know is what I can gather from its discussion here.

[McElmurry]

I'll take your word for it that the language didn't survive the boat trip to America, but I find it hard to believe that anyone with an active interest in northern Ireland would be oblivious to Ulster-Scots.

I visited Politics.ie daily for about six months so I am aware of the language. But you definitely have to have more than a passing interest in Irish politics to hang around that site much.

My McElmurry kin came to Georgia Colony in the first half of the 18th century and were involved in the deer hide trade for 3 generations through Kentucky County and into what is now Arkansas. They would have used English, French and various native languages but would have had little use for any form of Gaelic language.

If I was going to learn another language at this point in my life it would be for purposes of travel, and would probably be German since I remember some from high school. When I retire I would like to spend a season sailing the coast of Ireland and the West coast of Scotland. But I would not need a Gaelic language to do that and I would not know how to pick between them.