Scots-Irish

[Blackrose87]

I have to confess- I know nothing of the politics of Ullans. When you speak of the nationalist community, I can't be sure if you mean Scots nationalism or Irish.

I was talking of the Irish nationalist/Catholic community. While Ulster-Scots do consider themselves 100% British, they are still on the island of Ireland, so Scottish politics has absolutely nothing o do with it.

I am afraid that attenuated kinship is stretched even thinner when you extend it to a working knowledge of the politics and culture of distant kin in another country, thousands of miles away....


Remove the self-selected tip of the iceberg- the XMarks factor, if you will, and you are going to have to look even harder to find a North American who knows what you have been talking about.

I'll have to disagree on that point. I've met plenty of Irish-Americans in Ireland, while in America and online that know plenty about the history of Northern Ireland. Even those who havn't looked into the politics of the place are still aware of the Troubles and the basic underlying causes of the situation here.

Without going too deep into specifics, I'd say the majority of Irish-Americans are aware of the IRA, and have a knowledge of the reasons behind their campaign.
So I do think that it would be relatively easy to find a North American with a basic knowledge of Northern Ireland politics.

Go raibh mile maith agat,
Marteigh

[Blackrose87]

Duplicate post

[Blackrose87]

Thanks for everyone's comments on this thread, I've learned a lot more about the diaspora in America I wasn't aware of.
I think it trying to find which, if any, Ulster-Scots traditions have been preserved in North America I got bogged down in the Ulster-Scots language, which seems like a dead end.
From some quick searching on the google I found that there are some Orange lodges in the USA, and more in Canada, so I suppose this tradition has been preserved to some extent. But these are obviously only attended by a very small minority of Ulster-Scots/Scotch-Irish in North America.

From what I can gather from this thread, there no real traditions that have been kept by the Scotch-Irish diaspora in America which would be similar to Ulster-Scots in Ireland today.
So has the Scots culture just been adopted by the Scotch-Irish in America? Or are there any differents between the two?

[Lyle1]

I was talking of the Irish nationalist/Catholic community. While Ulster-Scots do consider themselves 100% British, they are still on the island of Ireland, so Scottish politics has absolutely nothing o do with it.

I'll have to disagree on that point. I've met plenty of Irish-Americans in Ireland, while in America and online that know plenty about the history of Northern Ireland. Even those who havn't looked into the politics of the place are still aware of the Troubles and the basic underlying causes of the situation here.

Without going too deep into specifics, I'd say the majority of Irish-Americans are aware of the IRA, and have a knowledge of the reasons behind their campaign.
So I do think that it would be relatively easy to find a North American with a basic knowledge of Northern Ireland politics.

Go raibh mile maith agat,
Marteigh

I have to agree with MacLowlife. There are too many differences between the Ulster-Scots and the Irish immigrants to the Americas to support your logic.

Most Ulster-Scots landed in the Americas when it was an English colony, and the Ulster-Scots entered as subjects of the same crown, or citizens, if you will, and were rather easily assimilated into the largely British population. Also, in the early 1700's, the colonies welcomed new settlers for many reasons, and the majority settled and helped hold open land.

The great waves of Irish, came in the mid 1800's. They were foreigners, poor, Catholic, and tended to settle in urban areas, because that's where they were most likely to be able to get job. The Irish were not welcomed as were the Ulster-Scots, and discrimination and even persecution was not uncommon. The Irish immigrants looked to one another for support and, sometimes, protection. Their sense of community, supported by their common religion, helped preserve traditions, and fond memories of the old country. This pattern of ethnic grouping was repeated into the next century as an enormous number of people came to the Americas from all over Europe. Many American cities still have neighborhoods that are populated largely by people with the same ethnic heritage.

As to why Americans are aware of the IRA and the history of Northern Ireland, I would suggest two factors:
1. The Irish ancestry of most Americans is recent, and the memories are still alive. When your grandparent tells a story about his grandparent, you have a closer connection than you do if the same story is told by someone who never knew the grandparent in the story.

2. Northern Ireland has been a news item fairly constantly for as long as I remember. I read about the troubles and watched newscasts on TV as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. What I know about Northern Ireland is more the result of what I've seen and heard on the news than it as about any legacy from my Irish ancestors.

[Blackrose87]

I have to agree with MacLowlife. There are too many differences between the Ulster-Scots and the Irish immigrants to the Americas to support your logic.

Most Ulster-Scots landed in the Americas when it was an English colony, and the Ulster-Scots entered as subjects of the same crown, or citizens, if you will, and were rather easily assimilated into the largely British population. Also, in the early 1700's, the colonies welcomed new settlers for many reasons, and the majority settled and helped hold open land.

The great waves of Irish, came in the mid 1800's. They were foreigners, poor, Catholic, and tended to settle in urban areas, because that's where they were most likely to be able to get job. The Irish were not welcomed as were the Ulster-Scots, and discrimination and even persecution was not uncommon. The Irish immigrants looked to one another for support and, sometimes, protection. Their sense of community, supported by their common religion, helped preserve traditions, and fond memories of the old country. This pattern of ethnic grouping was repeated into the next century as an enormous number of people came to the Americas from all over Europe. Many American cities still have neighborhoods that are populated largely by people with the same ethnic heritage.

As to why Americans are aware of the IRA and the history of Northern Ireland, I would suggest two factors:
1. The Irish ancestry of most Americans is recent, and the memories are still alive. When your grandparent tells a story about his grandparent, you have a closer connection than you do if the same story is told by someone who never knew the grandparent in the story.

2. Northern Ireland has been a news item fairly constantly for as long as I remember. I read about the troubles and watched newscasts on TV as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. What I know about Northern Ireland is more the result of what I've seen and heard on the news than it as about any legacy from my Irish ancestors.

I wasn't suggesting there were connections or similarities between the Scotch-Irish Americans and Irish Americans.
I was merely using them as an example in response to Maclowlifes claim that it would be hard to find any North American with knowledge of Northern Irish politics.

It seems from your post that Northern Irish politics are actually reported in America, if you were aware of them throughout your life.
So forgetting ancestry and heritage for a moment, its not unbelievable to think that North Americans would be aware and interested in the politics of my wee country, even though it is thousands of miles away.
Would there be many who have researched and studied the culture, history and politics of the place? Probably not. But I dont think its ridiculous to suggest there must be a reasonable enough percentage of Americans who are actually aware of the politics and history of the Northern Ireland.

[McElmurry]

I can see from your perspective that it might be hard to believe that decedents of immigrants from Ireland have a better understanding of NI politics than decedents of immigrants from Ulster. The Irish-Americans are just closer to each other and to the Emerald Isle both geographically and temporally.

The Scots have a great brand, they are well organized, and they are inclusive. If you have a name that fits the clan you’re in, and if you don't you’re in anyway. Many of Scots-Irish descent end up in the Scottish clan associations and societies.

[McElmurry]

I went back and found this blogger I followed a bit a few years ago. He seems to have an honest perspective.

http://clydesburn.blogspot.com/

[Bugbear]

Well for what it's worth, I've been reading, Northern Ireland: A Very Short Introduction, by Marc Mulholland (Oxford UP, 2002) today.
The one on Scotland (same publisher and series, different author) did talk a little bit about Ulster-Scots.

[Blackrose87]

Thanks for everyone who contributed to this thread, it's definitely answered my question, and more so.

The first time I came across the term Scotch-Irish was on this forum, and I had no idea what it meant. Being born and raised in Ireland, and then living in Scotland for the last 8 years I though I would have at least heard this term.
I assumed from the way it was being used that it was in some way a different American diaspora culture that Scots-American.
On reading of its connections with Ulster-Scots, I had thought it would be interesting to see what unique Scotch-Irish traditions there were and how these could be compared to the modern day culture of the Ulster-Scots in Ireland. But as far as I can see, there are none, which is disappointing as I think this would have been quite interesting.

I guess I had also made the assumption of an interest in Ulster and Northern Irish history in the Scotch-Irish diaspora. I had only assumed this based on the extremely high level of knowledge and enthusiasm for Scottish history and culture by Scots-Americans I see on this forum. But again, it seems I was wrong.

I find the topics relating to Scots-American & Irish-American history and culture on this forum very interesting, but as there are many things I cannot fully understand or comprehend, and many things I have absolutely no knowledge of.
I suppose because there is such a high proportion of North Americans here, a lot of references go right over my head and I just can't understand them. So thanks for taking the time to explain this things, and as strange to me as they made seem I think I'm starting to gain a much better understanding of them.

[EagleJCS]

I think if you were to do a poll among those claiming Scots-Irish and/or Irish descent here in the US, you would find that there are widely varying degrees of awareness of personal/family history and interest in Ulster/NI/Irish history and current events. My grandfather always told my father that we were Scots-Irish. I don't know if he was making a pun on the fact that our surname is Scott and his mother was from Ireland (Toome, County Antrim, in fact). I hevn't been able to trace my family back far enough to find the connection back across the Atlantic.

We're also limited by the rules on this forum from discussion of The Troubles, etc., but I'm sure many people (both here and in the general population) are at least peripherally aware of them, as Lyle1 suggested, even if they don't know the entire history and causes.

As Jeff (ForresterModern) and others have said, the various waves of immigration of Ulster-Scots (generally called Scots-Irish here) followed by the Irish-Irish and Scots the the U.S. were more focused on day-to-day survival and becoming integrated into their local communities rather than maintaining the traditions and speech from home. In fact, many immigrants in the early- to mid-1800's were actively discouraged from doing so (look up the Bloody Monday riots here in Louisville as an example). Regarding traditions and prcitices carried over, their children were often told (in effect) "That doesn't matter now. We're in America and you're an American now! Forget about that stuff!"

I find it diappointing that more people don't take an interest in history (their own and history in general). As George Santayana wrote: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."


You might also want to take note that the prevailing term these days is Scots-Irish rather than Scotch-Irish (Scotch being an adult beverage and a trademarked brand of 3M tape).