regimental Glen dicing = metal sporran rim?

[OC Richard]

It's odd how a thread will lead onto other topics, and sometimes I'll think about something or realise something that I haven't before... those "aha!" moments.

The thread about kilt headgear led onto the subject of regimental diced Glens v plain Glens, and suddenly I noticed something I hadn't before.

Well, I had noticed it, but not connected it together.

First some background: From 1809 (when many of the kilted regiments had their kilts taken away and were put into English dress) and 1881 (when pairs of regiments were amalgamated) there were only five kilted regiments in the British Army, the 42nd, 78th, 79th, 92nd, and 93rd Foot.

The 42nd and 79th wore plain Glens, the others diced.

It dawned on me that there existed a correlation between the Glens and the rims of the cantles of the ORs' sporrans: the ORs' cantles of all five regiments were black leather, but those of the 42nd and 79th had matching black leather rims, the other three regiments (the ones with diced Glens) had metal rims. (The cones for the tassels were black leather on the sporrans with black leather rims.)

Here are some photos which more or less clearly show this in practice.

First, ORs of the Black Watch and The Cameron Highlanders (the rims of the sporran cantles may not be all that clear, but at least you can see the plain Glens)





and ORs of the Gordon Highlanders and The Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (clearly showing the metal rims and diced Glens)





Now, for a clearer view of the respective sporrans, here they are:









Sorry I don't have images for The Seaforth Highlanders to hand (see post below to see Seaforth Highlanders photos).

I haven't a clue WHY this correlation existed, but exist it did.

[Chas]

I haven't a clue WHY this correlation existed, but exist it did.

Two quick thoughts.

Firstly, Even in this day and age there is no real standardisation in the British Army. Things happen and become traditional and no one questions it. In the late 70s, early 80s, the RAF was intending to introduce a ceremonial dress headdress. The design was such that they would have to be individually made to suit the head shape. We all went through long hours of having our heads measured - for and aft, side to side, circumference and ear to ear. This was all found to be 'not good enough' and some sort of mapping was introduced. The cost of the adventure in the South Atlantic put paid to the idea and they were only inflicted on the Bands. Why anyone would think that the RAF needed a mini-bearskin type hat (with no historical precedent) is still debated today. But it was almost done.

The second thought is that this correlation is going to annoy some people on this board.

Regards

Chas

[David Thorpe]

...this correlation is going to annoy some people on this board.

Par for the course, is it not?

[OC Richard]

Even in this day and age there is no real standardisation in the British Army. Things happen and become traditional and no one questions it.

That's so true particularly in those five kilted pre-1881 regiments. For example, the Gordon Highlanders were the only one to wear kilt pins (plain "blanket pins") and their spats were taller than the spats of the other four kilted regiments (I mean the white Full Dress spats, not the khaki service dress spats). And so on and so on.

[Jock Scot]

I have no idea of the truth of how these things arrived, I doubt that anyone does, but at a guess, it was down to the personal fadds and fancies of the then C. O.'s of the individual Regiments, who thought it was a good idea at the time.The British Army is littered with such examples.

[MacSpadger]

I've never noticed this before, Richard. I wonder if it's a weird co-incidence or one regiment aping another? I can add the London Scottish to the plain glen/leather cantle list and the Liverpool Scottish to the diced glengarry/metal cantle club.

[creagdhubh]

Very interesting indeed, gents. Thanks for sharing.

Cheers,

[OC Richard]

This got me to go back and look over old photos of Seaforth Highlanders and guess what? I found photos showing both diced and plain Glengarries!





Does this ruin my pretty little theory? Yes and no.

The pre-1881 kilted parent of The Seaforth Highlanders, the 78th Highlanders, had metal rims to their ORs sporrans and images from the 1850s up to 1881 clearly show diced glengarries being worn (except by pipers and bandsmen).

So far so good.

But the other parent regiment, the 72nd Highlanders, wore plain glengarries. This regiment was one of the Highland regiments which had had its Highland dress revoked in 1809, but in 1823 was granted a unique form of dress: PCE Stuart tartan trousers, scarlet doublets, and feather bonnets. Photos of the 72nd Highlanders taken in the 1870s clearly show plain glengarries being worn.

What's interesting is that most photos of post-1881 Seaforth Highlanders show diced glengarries, but some photos show plain glengarries being worn by non-pipers/bandsmen. For example, there's a photo of a Seaforth sentry taken "around 1884" clearly showing a plain glengarry being worn.

In 1881 the 72nd Highlanders became the 1st Battalion Seaforth Highlanders and the 78th Highlanders became the 2nd Battalion Seaforth Highlanders. The former 72nd had its PCE tartan trousers taken away and were given MacKenzie kilts etc etc. Perhaps they retained their plain glengarries for a time? In any case by WWI photos clearly show the 1st Battalion wearing diced glengarries.

A difference in dress between the 1st and 2nd Battalions wouldn't be unexpected: the pipers of the 1st Battalion wore white sporrans with silver/white metal tops, those of the 2nd Battalion brown/grey sporrans with brass/gilt tops. Likewise the buckles, dirks, etc of the 1st Battalion were silver/white metal, those of the 2nd Battalion brass/gilt.

Then of course WWI came along and there was a huge proliferation of Battalions, which complicates everything.

I've found photos of the 1/4th Seaforths (Ross and Cromarty) showing diced glengarries, others plain glengarries, both with their distinctive cap badge and with the usual Seaforths cap badge...hmm...



The 1/5th Seaforths (Caithness and Sutherland) wore an entirely different uniform, with their distinctive sporran, but with their kilt and glengarry as per the Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders (Government tartan, boxpleated)





I actually used to own one of these sporrans! I picked it up on Ebay not knowing its provenance.

[Father Bill]

I'd love to read this thread a bit better but what is an OR? (I hate initials!)

[Chas]

I'd love to read this thread a bit better but what is an OR? (I hate initials!)

Other Ranks.

Officers, Sergeants and Other Ranks.

Regards

Chas