Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

[David Thorpe]

This, I think, is where the confusion lies. Because when I make a box pleat, no matter the yardage used, I always start out sewing the pleat just as I would a knife pleat. Making it into a "box" pleat always involves an additional step in the construction process, no matter if the kilt contains four yard, six yards, what have you.

(emphasis added)
That is one way to do it. I don't dispute that it may be the best way and the historically correct way to do it. But it is not the only way to do it. It could be done in one step, stitching a left and right pleat edge together, running the stitches through the center of the underlying pleat. There may be a reason for not doing it this way of which I am unaware. I have done three inverted pleats that way with satisfactory results.

Someone not familiar with the construction process may look at the kilt described by the first drawing, and the kilt described by the third drawing, and think these two entirely different styles of kilt.

And they would be right. When the box becomes considerably smaller than the underlying knife pleat, it tales on an entirely different look as well as structure. The "military box pleat" is in fact a small box pleat superimposed upon a larger knife pleat. "Military knife pleat" wold be just as accurate a description, since the knife pleat, being larger, is the dominant factor in the structure. No one would understand that description, but that is because of common usage rather than structure.

I t could be argued that since the outer box pleat is what you see, at least while the wearer and the wind are still, "box pleat" is a more fitting description. But common usage of "box pleat" again brings to mind an entirely different style -- considerably larger pleats with no larger underlying knife pleat.

I don't have a dog in this hunt and I am certainly no expert. My interest is as a rank amateur, but very enthusiastic student of kilts and kilt making. I am also a big fan of terms that accurately describe objects and processes. TCHD and kilts are areas sometimes lacking in clear definitions. Trying to lump "military box pleat" in as a minor variation of "box pleat" doesn't help. They have much in common, but are different enough to deserve two separate definitions, in my very humble opinion.

[Chas]

If the kilt fits properly, and the pleats are taken care of in terms of proper pressing, there should be no splaying.

To be honest, a beautiful Kilt but to look their best, they seem pretty high maintenance and I would think you'd need to know what you were doing.

My point exactly. Maybe the wearer had over-indulged the previous week, maybe it was the end of the day and the kilt had slipped a bit, maybe the kilt was in need of a touch-up with an iron - I don't know. Just that I find it to be more obvious with a box pleated kilt.

As I said 'totally unscientific'. I have probably seen hundreds of box pleated kilts and never noticed them at all!

Regards

Chas

[M. A. C. Newsome]

(emphasis added)
That is one way to do it. I don't dispute that it may be the best way and the historically correct way to do it. But it is not the only way to do it. It could be done in one step, stitching a left and right pleat edge together, running the stitches through the center of the underlying pleat. There may be a reason for not doing it this way of which I am unaware. I have done three inverted pleats that way with satisfactory results.

Anyone who wishes can see how I make box pleats by downloading the supplement to The Art of Kiltmaking I did with Barb T.
http://scottishtartans.org/boxpleat.html

It's the way I was taught, and based on all historical examples I have seen, it's the way it was originally done. I'm not meaning to sound confrontational, but I honestly don't see why someone would do it any differently. Perhaps I'll have to take some pictures or make some more drawings to illustrate that I am taking about. A picture is worth a thousand words!

I feel that many people think a box pleat is made by first making a knife pleat by folding the fabric over to the right, and sewing that down to the fabric below it; then making a knife pleat right next to it by folding the cloth over to the left, so that the edge of the pleat butts up against its neighbor, and sewing that pleat down to the fabric below it. So that one box pleat is formed by sewing two opposing knife pleats.

That's not how it is done at all. I suppose someone could do it that way, but I don't see any advantage to it. It would be a lot of extra work, and wouldn't have any advantages.

I'll have to sketch out what the pleat looks like as its being sewn and let folks see how the "box" is formed. I think that will answer many questions.

And they would be right. When the box becomes considerably smaller than the underlying knife pleat, it tales on an entirely different look as well as structure. The "military box pleat" is in fact a small box pleat superimposed upon a larger knife pleat. "Military knife pleat" wold be just as accurate a description, since the knife pleat, being larger, is the dominant factor in the structure. No one would understand that description, but that is because of common usage rather than structure.

I t could be argued that since the outer box pleat is what you see, at least while the wearer and the wind are still, "box pleat" is a more fitting description. But common usage of "box pleat" again brings to mind an entirely different style -- considerably larger pleats with no larger underlying knife pleat.

I don't have a dog in this hunt and I am certainly no expert. My interest is as a rank amateur, but very enthusiastic student of kilts and kilt making. I am also a big fan of terms that accurately describe objects and processes. TCHD and kilts are areas sometimes lacking in clear definitions. Trying to lump "military box pleat" in as a minor variation of "box pleat" doesn't help. They have much in common, but are different enough to deserve two separate definitions, in my very humble opinion.

Does a four yard "traditional boix pleat" look a whole heckuvalot different from an eight yard "military box pleat?" You betcha.

Does a four yard knife pleated kilt look a lot different from an eight yard knife pleated kilt? Of course it does. In either case the difference in appearance is a direct result of the amount of fabric used, not the pleating style. We don't need different terms to describe a knife pleat made using different amounts of cloth. My position is that we don't require different terms for box pleats, either.

First of all, I think it is a mistake to use the term "military" to describe an eight yard box pleated kilt. There are many reasons for this. One of which is that the original tailored kilts worn by the military were all box pleated, and all contained four yards (or less!) of cloth. So why wouldn't the four yard box pleated kilt be described as "military?" That would be just as accurate.

Second, the knife pleated kilt seems to have been introduced by the military, being used first by the Gordon Highlanders in 1853. So why not refer to the knife pleated kilts as the "military" style? That would be just as accurate.

Of course, not all regiments wore the knife pleated kilt after this date. Some military regiments, as we have discussed, retained the traditional box pleat style (traditional here in the sense that the regiments always wore that style). And, over time, as fashion dictated the amount of cloth used in a kilt increase, these kilts were made with more and more yardage. The average amount of cloth used in kilt c. 1800 was four yards. By 1840 the average amount (according to Bob Martin) was about 5.5 yards. There is a Gordon Highlander's kilt from 1881 in the Regimental Museum in Aberdeen made with six yards. A Queen's Own Highlanders kilt in their regimental museum from 1906 contains only six and a half yards. Today we have our nominal eight yard norm for kilts.

Even though box pleats were still worn by civilians even into the late nineteenth century, by the twentieth century, civilian kilts were almost universally knife pleated, so it was really only a few regiments who preserved the box pleating style. So it is understandable that people would come to associate the box pleat with the military but I maintain that it is a bit of a misnomer. Box pleats have never been reserved only for the military, and the knife pleat is associated with military kilts just as much as the box pleat.

Further, if we reserve the term "box pleat" for a four yard kilt, and use "military box pleat" to describe an eight yard kilt, then what do we call a five yard kilt made with this type of pleat? Or a six yard kilt? Or seven? When does it cross that magic line and become a "military box pleated kilt?"

In my mind it is very simple. Knife pleats all run in one direction. Box pleats run both left and right. The depth of the pleats, and the amount of material used is of no bearing to this basic definition.

The simplest and best way to describe a kilt is refer to the style of pleat (either knife or box) and the amount of cloth used. So you can have a "four yard box pleated kilt" or a "seven yard knife pleated kilt" or a "six and a half yard box pleated kilt," etc. No need to attach any other terms to our description to muddy the waters.

[David Thorpe]

First of all, I think it is a mistake to use the term "military" to describe an eight yard box pleated kilt.

That may well be - a case (among quite a few on the subject) where current common usage of a term is not entirely descriptive.

...why wouldn't the four yard box pleated kilt be described as "military?" That would be just as accurate.

I believe that the term "military" applied to kilts in contemporary common usage means "pleated to the stripe" with rather narrow pleats, whether knife or box pleated.

Further, if we reserve the term "box pleat" for a four yard kilt, and use "military box pleat" to describe an eight yard kilt, then what do we call a five yard kilt made with this type of pleat? Or a six yard kilt? Or seven? When does it cross that magic line and become a "military box pleated kilt?"

I don't see a well-defined line, nor do I think hair-splitting necessary. A military box pleated kilt is typically around eight yards with box pleats of around 1/2 - 3/4 inches wide. On the other hand, a typical box-pleated kilt is roughly four yards with pleats in the 2 1/2 to 3 inch range. Two completely different styles. I don't doubt that many kilts have been made in the nebulous in-between area, but they would not be typical of either type.

The simplest and best way to describe a kilt is refer to the style of pleat (either knife or box) and the amount of cloth used. So you can have a "four yard box pleated kilt" or a "seven yard knife pleated kilt" or a "six and a half yard box pleated kilt," etc. No need to attach any other terms to our description to muddy the waters.

"Other terms", i.e. "military box pleated" have already been applied and are commonly understood to mean a certain style quite distinct from "box-pleated".

[M. A. C. Newsome]

"Other terms", i.e. "military box pleated" have already been applied and are commonly understood to mean a certain style quite distinct from "box-pleated".

I think we need to be very careful here to keep in mind that what may be "commonly understood" by active members of this forum may not, in fact, be "commonly understood" by the kilt wearing and kilt making world at large.

This is a very perfect and clear example. On this forum, when one says "box pleated kilt" one immediately imagines a four yard variety, whereas one must say "military box pleated kilt" if one means the eight yard variety.

However, if one were to approach just about any classically trained kiltmaker in Scotland and ask about a "box pleated kilt" they will immediately assume you mean the modern-day military style kilt. Most will never have heard of a "four yard box pleated kilt."

Really, though, my only point in all of this is that there are but two basic forms of pleating: knife pleats and box pleats. Any other styles of pleating we may imagine are simply variations of these made with differing amounts of material or some combination of the two (such as the Kingussie style which combines one central box pleat with flanking knife pleats). "Military box pleat" does not constitute a third, distinct form of pleating, it is simply one possible form of box pleat.

[Paul Henry]

snip.... "Military box pleat" does not constitute a third, distinct form of pleating, it is simply one possible form of box pleat.

or another person could say another form of knife pleat, as a box pleat actually contains 2 knife pleats back to back.

The simplest element in any tailored pleat is the single fold, which when seen in a kilt is....... the knife pleat!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

or another person could say another form of knife pleat, as a box pleat actually contains 2 knife pleats back to back.

The simplest element in any tailored pleat is the single fold, which when seen in a kilt is....... the knife pleat!

That's very true, Paul. I suppose if one were only looking at a single pleat, then any pleat would be considered a knife pleat. One almost needs multiple pleats in order to make a distinction. Do all the pleats run the same way? Knife pleats. Do pairs of pleats run in opposite directions? Box pleats.

[David Thorpe]

Do all the pleats run the same way? Knife pleats. Do pairs of pleats run in opposite directions? Box pleats.

And if both are present, in integral and superimposed pairs, across the entire pleated part of the kilt as in MBP? A variation on box pleats, or a variation on knife pleats? Tomato tomahto. Yin and yang.

I'll shut up and butt out now.

[Pleater]

Coming to this late as usual - little grandsons are so time consuming - adorable but time consuming - I can see how the description of the MBP as a folded back knife pleat might help to visualise it, but it might also confuse things.

If the visible part of the box pleat - I term it a panel - tapers on both edges within the fell, then the folded back knife pleat is not an accurate description.

If making a military box pleat I would select the portion of the sett I will have as the panel, then calculate the taper required in total then for each one, press the lower part of the kilt to make the edges of the panel at the width required at the lower edge of the fell, and then probably find the line for the first fold, which will be the second anf third layers of fabric. That will be measured so it is straight down from the waist, I think, as there is no room for tapering that, so it has to be no wider than the folds at the waist will allow.

The panels have to be wide enough for the edges to meet when the kilt is being worn, falling from the widest part of the rump, and are narrowed above that to fit in to the waist.

Banging the crease in before the pleats are folded and sewn, so there is only one crease to put pressure on, I find is easier and seems to make the result thinner.

I did not get as far as this with the one I started on - due to grandsons - but the folds being in, then the panels of the pleats could be sewn to make the fell, then the short side folded down and the long side folded over all and a lot of pressing done.

If the long, innermost fold is only extended the width of two panels there will be seven layers of fabric, more if the fold is longer, so presumably there is a lot of trimming done to remove fabric in the fell.

So much fabric, so many possibilities, but so little time.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[Dixiecat]

or another person could say another form of knife pleat, as a box pleat actually contains 2 knife pleats back to back.

The simplest element in any tailored pleat is the single fold, which when seen in a kilt is....... the knife pleat!

Well, actually..........what makes a box pleat a box pleat, is the box. Hell, pinch pleated drapes are modified box pleats. If you take the box and fold it one way or t'other you get a knife pleat. And, if you fold it another way, you get double box pleats. A very versatile element the pleat is.

Matt, no one is disputing what box pleats are or really how they're made, what I'm seeing here is the confusion on the evolution of the box into a military box when you add all that extra fabric. Can you post pics of how you do a military? It's obvious from the images that you've posted that you can't take a box pleat as you have made it and then create a military box pleat.