Military Box-Pleats: some questions for the rabble.

[M. A. C. Newsome]

And if both are present, in integral and superimposed pairs, across the entire pleated part of the kilt as in MBP? A variation on box pleats, or a variation on knife pleats? Tomato tomahto. Yin and yang.

I'll shut up and butt out now.

But you cannot have both present, and that's what I'm trying to make clear. You (and others) seem to be thinking of the "military box pleat" as a pleat that is made with a knife pleat on one side (the deep pleat) and a box pleat on the other (the shallow pleat). And I am saying this is a wrong way to think about it.

I think we have established the fact that a single pleat, looked at on its own, is always going to be a knife pleat. In order to define the pleating style, we need to look at a group of pleats. Knife pleats all run in one and the same direction. Box pleats run in alternate directions.

The pleats in a military box pleated kilt run in alternate directions, and are therefore box pleats. The pleats running in one direction are much deeper than the pleats running in the other, yes. And so in that respect the pleats resemble somewhat our expectations of a typical knife pleated kilt, because our eye tends to put greater emphasis on the deep pleats. But it would be wrong to say those pleats are knife pleats, because they are not. They each have a "partner" running counter to it, just like a four-yard box pleated kilt would, only the pleats are not of equal depth as they would be in the four-yarder.

Really, I'm not wanting to argue with anyone, and I'm not hot under the collar about this at all, though one might easily get that impression from the amount of time I am spending on the posts in this thread (too much, I will admit). I'm just concerned about using our terms with precision. As this is something I actually do the terms matter to me. I admit that I do get a little frustrated when I hear people calling garter flashes "kilt flashers" or "flashings," pronounce Glasgow to rhyme with "glass cow," or tell me they want their kilt made from the "ancient weathered tartan" for their clan (well, do you want ancient or weathered, you can't have both). I couldn't tell you the number of times I have heard people refer to a box pleated kilt as a "box kilt" (which to me sounds like they got their kilt out of a box, or a kilt made from cardboard boxes). I don't like sloppy language and I like for people to know the correct terms for things. I don't get upset when people use the wrong terms, but I do like to educate people. (I'm not this way about everything, just things that I know and care about, as I suspect most of us are).

"Military box pleat" is not as bad as some of these, above, but I am afraid it does lead to confusion among some when the impression is given that it is some third, distinctive type of pleating. I have heard someone describe it as a "box-knife" pleat. I hear "box-knife" and I think of a utility blade, something you would find in a shipping warehouse are not allowed to carry on an airplane. People use the term to mean "box pleat on one side and knife pleat on the other" but as I said this is an impossibility. It is a box pleat with the pleat deeper on one side. Knife pleat is not synonymous with "deep pleat." It refers to the fact that all the pleats run in the same direction which is not the case with the styles of kilt we are discussing. They are all box pleated kilts, made with different amounts of material. Again, that's my only real point.

I at least hope all this discussion has helped clarify the terminology for some readers here!

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Can you post pics of how you do a military? It's obvious from the images that you've posted that you can't take a box pleat as you have made it and then create a military box pleat.

I don't have pictures handy, but perhaps I can adequately describe the difference.

Ok, let's start by looking again at this diagram Barb T drew.


You can see that in a four yard box pleated kilt, once your pleats are sewn in, the next step is to take the inside "loop" created by the pleat, and open it up and flatten it out. .You are looking in this diagram at the pleats from the bottom up, keep in mind. When I am actually doing this, I am working with the inside of the kilt facing up on the work table, and I'm working on the top part of the pleats, the part above the fell.

What I do when I "open up" the box pleats is take the center part of the "loop" you see in the diagram and line that up with the line of stitching on the pleat itself. This gives you just as much depth on one side of the pleat as the other. When I have all the pleats pinned in place like this, I sew a line of stitching across the top of the whole thing, and a couple lines of steeking across the body of the pleats, to hold them all in place.

One thing that becomes apparent when you see this done is that the box pleat really is not made from two pleats lying face-to-face, but is actually a single pleat, the inside cloth of which is folded to go in two directions. (I realize this runs counter to some of what I have written in recent posts, but there I was talking about the visual end result and here I am talking about the process).

So what do you do when you are making a kilt like this from more yardage? Well, the outside "face" of the pleat will be smaller, by some degree. And the inside "loop" of the pleat will be larger. You cannot, physically, open the loop the same way, so that the middle of it lies over the stitching of the pleat, giving equal depth in both directions. It would cause problems when you tried to do the same thing to the next pleat over. There would be no room for overlap. So what you do is to open up the loop so that the depth of the pleat going one way is only as deep as the pleat face next to it is wide. In other words, if you are dealing with 1" pleats, your pleat depth would be no more than 1" wide. And in the other direction, of course, your pleat would be much deeper. But in opening up all the "loops" the same way like this, all the deep parts of the pleats run the same direction, and so they can overlap each other.

The other difference, in terms of construction, is that with additional cloth you will of course want to cut out the excess material from the inside of the pleats. But that is a function of the amount of cloth used, and not the style of pleating. It would be the same for a knife pleated kilt, as well.

I don't know if that makes it clear enough for you. I have a couple of six-yard box pleated kilts coming up in my order queue so perhaps when I get to those I can take photos of the inside of the pleats "in progress" to better show what I mean.

[OC Richard]

the deep parts of the pleats run the same direction, and so they can overlap each other.
I have a couple of six-yard box pleated kilts coming up in my order queue so perhaps when I get to those I can take photos of the inside of the pleats "in progress" to better show what I mean.

That's cool Matt, I'd love to see those 6-yard boxpleated kilts.

This painting has always epitomised to me the military kilt par excellence, the mid-19th century boxpleated kilt of the 79th Foot in 1852. Matt, can you estimate from the image how much yardage was used? I presume that at this time the yardage had increased to the point that the "military box pleat" with its overlap was used

[Dixiecat]

One thing that becomes apparent when you see this done is that the box pleat really is not made from two pleats lying face-to-face, but is actually a single pleat, the inside cloth of which is folded to go in two directions. (I realize this runs counter to some of what I have written in recent posts, but there I was talking about the visual end result and here I am talking about the process).

It might go counter to what you've been saying, but this was the point I was trying to make earlier. It's the way you fold the pleat that gives the outward affect. You could fold two knife pleats together to get a box pleat, but people in the sewing world would generally not do this as it creates a minute gap where the two pleats meet.

So what do you do when you are making a kilt like this from more yardage? Well, the outside "face" of the pleat will be smaller, by some degree. And the inside "loop" of the pleat will be larger. You cannot, physically, open the loop the same way, so that the middle of it lies over the stitching of the pleat, giving equal depth in both directions. It would cause problems when you tried to do the same thing to the next pleat over. There would be no room for overlap. So what you do is to open up the loop so that the depth of the pleat going one way is only as deep as the pleat face next to it is wide. In other words, if you are dealing with 1" pleats, your pleat depth would be no more than 1" wide. And in the other direction, of course, your pleat would be much deeper. But in opening up all the "loops" the same way like this, all the deep parts of the pleats run the same direction, and so they can overlap each other.

This is what needs illustration, and I look forward to seeing your pics of the 6yd mbp kilts.

I have to say that I'm enjoying this thread. I've missed the collaboration atmosphere of the sewing conferences and conventions I used to work.

[David Thorpe]

But you cannot have both present, and that's what I'm trying to make clear. You (and others) seem to be thinking of the "military box pleat" as a pleat that is made with a knife pleat on one side (the deep pleat) and a box pleat on the other (the shallow pleat). And I am saying this is a wrong way to think about it.

They ARE both present in MBP, plain as day. You are, of course, welcome to ignore that fact and to "think about it" anyway you wish. That doesn't make seeing it for what it actually is "wrong".

OK, I really am done with this now.

[Pleater]

Coming to this late as usual - little grandsons are so time consuming - adorable but time consuming - I can see how the description of the MBP as a folded back knife pleat might help to visualise it, but it might also confuse things.

If the visible part of the box pleat - I term it a panel - tapers on both edges within the fell, then the folded back knife pleat is not an accurate description.

If making a military box pleat I would select the portion of the sett I will have as the panel, then calculate the taper required in total then for each one, press the lower part of the kilt to make the edges of the panel at the width required at the lower edge of the fell, and then probably find the line for the first fold, which will be the second anf third layers of fabric. That will be measured so it is straight down from the waist, I think, as there is no room for tapering that, so it has to be no wider than the folds at the waist will allow.

The panels have to be wide enough for the edges to meet when the kilt is being worn, falling from the widest part of the rump, and are narrowed above that to fit in to the waist.

Banging the crease in before the pleats are folded and sewn, so there is only one crease to put pressure on, I find is easier and seems to make the result thinner.

I did not get as far as this with the one I started on - due to grandsons - but the folds being in, then the panels of the pleats could be sewn to make the fell, then the short side folded down and the long side folded over all and a lot of pressing done.

If the long, innermost fold is only extended the width of two panels there will be seven layers of fabric, more if the fold is longer, so presumably there is a lot of trimming done to remove fabric in the fell.

So much fabric, so many possibilities, but so little time.

Anne the Pleater :ootd:

[M. A. C. Newsome]

They ARE both present in MBP, plain as day. You are, of course, welcome to ignore that fact and to "think about it" anyway you wish. That doesn't make seeing it for what it actually is "wrong".

OK, I really am done with this now.

Well, if you insist on looking at it that way, you may as well say there are "knife pleats" in a four yard box pleated kilt, as well. Half of them run to the left, and half of them run to the right, alternating with each pleat. :-)

[Paul Henry]

Well, if you insist on looking at it that way, you may as well say there are "knife pleats" in a four yard box pleated kilt, as well. Half of them run to the left, and half of them run to the right, alternating with each pleat. :-)

Matt, A little out of order I think,even with the smiley face.

This has been an interesting discussion,but perhaps more heat than light.
It would very interesting to hear from any kiltmaker who actually offer a MBP as a standard to see how they approach this thorny question...

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I'm thinking maybe this will help.

To make a pleat (any pleat), you start by simply folding a length of cloth over on itself. The arrow below marks where you'd sew the edge of the upper fold to the fabric below.


Once you have that sewn in place, you have effectively made a "loop" in the cloth. The little "v" marks where your line of stitching is.


What do you do with that loop of fabric?

To make a knife pleat, you just fold it all in one direction and sew that down somehow.


To make a box pleat, you fold the loop so that there is some on either side of the seam. You could do it so that there is an even amount of cloth on both sides, like this:

This is how you'd want to do it if making a kilt from four yards of material. Of course the yardage used in any kilt is relative to the size of the kilt being made. So a more accurate way of saying it is that this is how you'd do it if you were making a kilt where the width of the pleats (at the hip) was about 1/3 the size of the sett repeat of the tartan.

If the pleats are smaller than this (because you have used more cloth), there will be an upper limit to the amount of the "loop" which can go to one side (because you'll be bumping into the next pleat, running the other way). That means your loop will be a bit lop-sided, with more on one end than the other. Like this:


This is what we are calling a "military box pleated kilt."

[Paul Henry]

Im not sure who you did the drawings for, but I'm not sure they are as helpful as you think.Ignoring the box/MBP question for a moment, when I sew a knife pleat I sew it from the front of the kilt (not the back as in your drawing) and the pleat edge is sewn to the next pleat which has been measured and folded behind and the stitching goes through both layers of the underpleat, this appears to be how Barb suggests in her book as well, and is I imagine how most knife pleated kilts are done,so the basic working method is not neccessarily the same as if to make a box pleat.

I think it is important to make the point that there are many ways to sew a kilt ( of whatever style) , and most kiltmakers will have their own little ways, I certainly do , but there isn't one "correct" method, there are many ways. I spent many years working with tailoring and theatrical costume before starting to make kilts, and so because of that I do things a little differently, but I hope still recognisably a very traditional hand sewn kilt.

So lets enjoy the fact that we enjoy making and wearing kilts (and indeed selling them!) and not to be too caught in what to many are seen as rather moot points.