Another Ebay sporran!!!

[Chas]

Thank you Chas, I did not know about the date stamp being optional these days. I personally would require one

Nevertheless would I want , as a purchaser of an antique, fresh hallmarks? In this modern day world of fakery from all corners of this Earth, alarm bells would ring loud and clear and even if I took the decision (and risk) to purchase a legitimate piece, my ancestors may have a torrid time explaining to whoever that a 150 year old antique has fresh hallmarks. No, this bidder would step away as many would, therefore the less bidders in the game the lower the price. Good in the short term for the purchaser, bad all round for the seller of today and years to come.

It is far more common than we might at first think. Old families often had silver repaired or re-used. A lid re-hinged, inherited silver having the coat of arms buffed out or a new arms medallion soldered on, handles from one era attached to the pots from another. All would require re-assaying, but if the silver is staying in the family - no need. It is so common that the jewellers have a name for it - "marriages".

But once an article has been legitimised by being assayed, then there should be no problem. After all styles come and go. Queen Anne style silver has come back twice that I know of.

Regards

Chas

[Chas]

I think some here might be missing the point. It was the law. Any silversmith, that did not have his wares assayed would lose his livelihood and end up in prison at least. His wife and children would starve to death or live on the charity of the parish.

Would you do it? So why should they have done it? When the punishments were far more severe. No Court of Human Rights in those days. For goodness sake - a man could be hung! So, would you do it?

If it was silver, it was hallmarked. No ifs, no buts, no maybes, no favours for friends, no 'just this once'.

No hallmark = not silver.

Regards

Chas

[Tobus]

Thank you Chas, I did not know about the date stamp being optional these days. I personally would require one

Nevertheless would I want , as a purchaser of an antique, fresh hallmarks? In this modern day world of fakery from all corners of this Earth, alarm bells would ring loud and clear and even if I took the decision (and risk) to purchase a legitimate piece, my ancestors may have a torrid time explaining to whoever that a 150 year old antique has fresh hallmarks. No, this bidder would step away as many would, therefore the less bidders in the game the lower the price. Good in the short term for the purchaser, bad all round for the seller of today and years to come.

UK silver buyer's law. Rule I. No hallmarks, its not silver.
UK silver buyer's law. Rule 2. Regard antique silver with fresh hallmarks with suspicion.
UK silver buyer's law. Rule 3. If rule one and/or rule two apply, walk away, there is plenty more "good" stuff to be found elsewhere.

UK silver sellers lament. A curse on those that failed to hallmark their wares at the appropriate time!

I'll be honest here - this is the first I've ever heard of this hallmark law. But if I understand it correctly, this has only been a requirement since 1973? If that's the case, then I'm confused by your Rule 2. Wouldn't any antique silver have "fresh" hallmarks? How would anyone be able to ever buy antique silver if one ignored fresh hallmarks?

And besides, if the consumers treat hallmarks with suspicion, doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of the hallmarks?

Again, since I'm not familiar with this law or its history (and enforcement), I'm curious as to how this has played out in the UK over the last 39 years. If an old Scottish gentleman had an antique sporran stuffed away in his attic, was he legally required to dig it out and get it hallmarked? What happens when he dies in 2012 and his grandson finds it and decides to sell it? Assuming the grandson decides to do it the proper way and have it hallmarked so he can sell it as silver, are all the wise collectors going to treat it with suspicion just because it bears a fresh hallmark?

[Paul Henry]

I'll be honest here - this is the first I've ever heard of this hallmark law. But if I understand it correctly, this has only been a requirement since 1973? If that's the case, then I'm confused by your Rule 2. Wouldn't any antique silver have "fresh" hallmarks? How would anyone be able to ever buy antique silver if one ignored fresh hallmarks?

And besides, if the consumers treat hallmarks with suspicion, doesn't that sort of defeat the purpose of the hallmarks?

Again, since I'm not familiar with this law or its history (and enforcement), I'm curious as to how this has played out in the UK over the last 39 years. If an old Scottish gentleman had an antique sporran stuffed away in his attic, was he legally required to dig it out and get it hallmarked? What happens when he dies in 2012 and his grandson finds it and decides to sell it? Assuming the grandson decides to do it the proper way and have it hallmarked so he can sell it as silver, are all the wise collectors going to treat it with suspicion just because it bears a fresh hallmark?

Actually There has been a statutory duty to mark precious metal since 1478, so it's reather an old system!

Have a look here

[creagdhubh]

Actually There has been a statutory duty to mark precious metal since 1478, so it's reather an old system!

Have a look here

Very interesting indeed!

[SlackerDrummer]

I certainly understand the legalities of the hallmark and I get that one cannot claim that something is silver if it is not properly hallmarked. As to the equation, however, that if there is no hallmark it is not silver, I would direct you to Shakespeare's Juliet: "What's in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet...." Or as paraphrased by Andy Griffith, "You can change the name of a rose, but you can't do nothin' about the smell."

[Jock Scot]

Tobus, the hallmarks are indeed trusted, but the "antique" might not be quite what it seems. Silver ? Absolutely! The hallmarks without a date stamp, just tell us that its silver. Antique? possibly. To the period(Georgian, early/late Victorian) humm, perhaps. All these things added together tell the present purchaser and future purchasers all that they need to know. If in doubt walk away.

So if I knew by the look of an object that it might be of the Regency period, I would then look at the hallmarks(well worn probably and another clue) to confirm an opinion that the piece is "right". Or the hallmarks could say that the goods was made in Birmingham in 1990. A good copy of a pleasing Regency style and made of silver for sure and quite above board, but the value between the two items could be seriously considerable.

So something that has an "old look" with modern hallmarks tells us a lot and could (does) affect the price considerably. The likely hood of finding a mint Regency silver tankard with mint hallmarks of the correct type, is the stuff of dreams! The thing to remember is that the value of the silver is almost immaterial here, it is the style , age, who made it, where it was made, scarcity and condition that is connected to the object that creates the value. It is the hallmarks (and experience) that tell the story of an item and if things don't ring true then something almost certainly is suspect and the hallmarks help no end with the item's history.

Just occasionally an item looks right, patina is right, feels right and possibly is right as far as silver content, age, style, etc., but with no hallmarks(they do exist) the value is much diminished. However if modern hallmarks are put on the item and it is rarely done, it is often worth even less!
,

[Chas]

I certainly understand the legalities of the hallmark and I get that one cannot claim that something is silver if it is not properly hallmarked. As to the equation, however, that if there is no hallmark it is not silver, I would direct you to Shakespeare's Juliet: "What's in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet...." Or as paraphrased by Andy Griffith, "You can change the name of a rose, but you can't do nothin' about the smell."

Juliet was 13, her lover was 17 and they both committed suicide. How that is relevant to silver, I don't know.

I do not know how it works in other parts of the world, but in the UK, if a person wants to buy a silver item he looks for the hallmarks. If he does not see any hallmarks, he puts the item down, because it is not what he is looking for. The item he is looking for, will (in the UK) have hallmarks. One equals the other.

I cannot say it another way. If it is silver, it will have hallmarks. Therefore, if there are no hallmarks, as far as the buyers are concerned, It Is Not Silver.

Juliet might be fooled, but she was only 13 - and dead!

Regards

Chas

[SlackerDrummer]

My point, Chas, which you are intelligent enough to comprehend, is that silver is not a legal state. It is a chemical element. A hallmark identifies something as silver. A hallmark does not make it silver.

[Chas]

My point, Chas, which you are intelligent enough to comprehend, is that silver is not a legal state. It is a chemical element. A hallmark identifies something as silver. A hallmark does not make it silver.

Show me picture of something that has been hallmarked as silver and isn't.

Regards

Chas