Blazon questions

[Scout]

Here's a revision including the suggested changes:

Coat of Arms: Gules, a fess embattled counter-embattled, between in chief three escutcheons and in base a harp Or.

Wreath: Gules and Or.

Crest: A dexter arm embowed vested Azure, the hand in a buckskin gauntlet proper, grasping a cavalry saber Argent, hilted Or.

Mantling: Gules doubled Argent.

Motto: Riamh Nar Dhruid O Spairn Lann

I did try and do this in the style of Irish Arms. I'm only working with the “Paint” program on my PC which is pretty limiting so after I'm satisfied I plan on having an artist draw them up for me in a nicer version.

I am of course open to more advice and suggestions!

[saharris]

Wreath: Gules and Or.
Mantling: Gules doubled Argent.

I agree with what has been posted so far (that modern arms use the liveries, that is the first color doubled of the first metal; and that during some periods in history Gules doubled Argent was used by default regardless of the arms' liveries). What I question is having the torse and the mantling not match each other. Is not one just an extension of the other?

Unless I am mistaken, I believe "in chief" and "in base" can also be dropped from the blazon. Having designated the fess, an heraldic artist would then read it "from top to bottom" anyway (more honorable position, chief...to lesser position, base).

I had much the same thought: "Gules a fess embattled-counterembattled between three escutcheons and a harp Or".
By the way, some consider one metal-one color arms such as these to be an ideal. Very nice design!

Motto: Riamh Nar Dhruid O Spairn Lann

How does this translate?

[Cygnus]

I had much the same thought: "Gules a fess embattled-counterembattled between three escutcheons and a harp Or".
By the way, some consider one metal-one color arms such as these to be an ideal. Very nice design!

If it were two escucheons and a harp, I could see that, but as some arms have two charges in chief and two in base, it could be drawn with two escucheons in chief with another escucheon and a harp in base (as the fess would still be between them all, it would technically be correct).

[Scout]

... How does this translate?

"Riamh Nar Dhruid O Spairn Lann" is from the Civil War era flag of the 69th New York of the famed Irish Brigade (commanded by an ancestor, Robert Nugent). The translation is: "Who never retreats from the clash of spears."

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

I agree with what has been posted so far (that modern arms use the liveries, that is the first color doubled of the first metal; and that during some periods in history Gules doubled Argent was used by default regardless of the arms' liveries). What I question is having the torse and the mantling not match each other. Is not one just an extension of the other?

Generally speaking the mantling and livery colours are the same, but not always! The Marquess of Dorset (d. 1501) had as a badge a unicorn ermine, which was displayed on a banner of his livery colours which were white and pink. The arms of the Duke of Buckingham (d.1521) were mantled gules countered ermine, but his livery colours were black and red. (Buckingham's arms, by the way, were or a chevron gules.) Moving forward 500 years or there abouts the livery colours of the feudal baron of Slane are yellow, red, and black, and are so depicted beneath his crest in his letters patent.

I am of the opinion that since very few de novo armigers are in a position to employ large numbers of servants, livery colours have very much fallen by the wayside. That said, there would probably be no good reason to deny a petitioner a wreath of his liveries, if they were desired.

[Scout]

... What I question is having the torse and the mantling not match each other. Is not one just an extension of the other? ...

That's a good question. Should the torse and the mantling match? I did the torse to match the colors of the shield.

Which is correct?

[saharris]

"Riamh Nar Dhruid O Spairn Lann" is from the Civil War era flag of the 69th New York of the famed Irish Brigade (commanded by an ancestor, Robert Nugent). The translation is: "Who never retreats from the clash of spears."

Very interesting, thank you!

That's a good question. Should the torse and the mantling match? I did the torse to match the colors of the shield.

Which is correct?

I was under the impression that (back when such things were actually worn) the torse and mantling were made of the same materials - thus matching each other. Heraldically speaking, you may choose whatever color-metal combination that you'd like for your torse and mantling, but I think that they should match each other.

[Scout]

...I was under the impression that (back when such things were actually worn) the torse and mantling were made of the same materials - thus matching each other...

I was following the guidance found on the American Heraldry Society's site: " ... the crest is usually depicted as joined to the helmet with a circlet of twisted cloth, called a wreath or torse. The norm in the United States is to show the torse as a twisted band, with three twists of the principal metal from the shield alternating with three twists of the principal color, starting with a twist of metal at the dexter side ..."

Any thoughts from our other resident Heralds?

[SlackerDrummer]

I was under the impression that (back when such things were actually worn) the torse and mantling were made of the same materials - thus matching each other. Heraldically speaking, you may choose whatever color-metal combination that you'd like for your torse and mantling, but I think that they should match each other.

I was following the guidance found on the American Heraldry Society's site: " ... the crest is usually depicted as joined to the helmet with a circlet of twisted cloth, called a wreath or torse. The norm in the United States is to show the torse as a twisted band, with three twists of the principal metal from the shield alternating with three twists of the principal color, starting with a twist of metal at the dexter side ..."

Any thoughts from our other resident Heralds?

No sense in second guessing. It only takes a quick look at the exemplifications of the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland to see that it is still common practice to have mantling that is Gules doubled Argent with a torse that is the primary metal and color from the arms.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

No sense in second guessing. It only takes a quick look at the exemplifications of the Office of the Chief Herald of Ireland to see that it is still common practice to have mantling that is Gules doubled Argent with a torse that is the primary metal and color from the arms.

Quite correct, although if so requested by the petitioner both the mantling and the wreath may be of any reasonable combination of colours provided they conform to the rules of heraldry.