Earliest use of brass-cantle sporrans?

[Downunder Kilt]

Kenneth, you are spot on in relation to the issue of the MoD "Culloden" cantles. though the bags for them were still being produced in 1968 (The lastest dated one I have seen) There were four models of the cantle, Mkl with steel rivets as the dimples on the front with a steel spring and hook locking mechanism which required the knob on top of the cantle to be pulled up. Mkll with the pressed brass dimples on the front and the push down locking mechanism, MKlll that was a silver plated MKll and MKlV which was made of thinner brass and had smaller dimples that the MKll. The newest one I have seen was a MKlV cantle with a bag dated 1968 that was in unworn, unblancoed condition.

[creagdhubh]

And a few that are in Edinburgh.

http://nms.scran.ac.uk/database/resu...erm=%2Bsporran

I fear that all I am doing is fuelling further sporran envy ... I wonder what Freud would say?

Very nice!

[Tullibardine]

I have a Mk I with original unblancoed pouch, Mk II BW and QOCH, and Mk IV, and have owned several others, both with and without cantle. They are supposedly based on an original worn by an Athollman at Culloden, but that story has never been conclusively proven.

Metal cantles don't appear in portraits until well into the 18th century. As only wealthier highlanders could afford them, they weren't common until later. The 1750s Ticonderoga sporran belonged to an officer, Lt. (later General) John Small of the 42nd. Even sporrans of the wealty were simple all-leather affairs until about 1750 - Major Fraser, Moray of Abercairney, the MacDonald children, and Thriepland of Fingask to name a few.

[ThistleDown]

They make for a nice decorative effect, to be sure, but seeing them used on brass cantles for such a long time seems to suggest that there's something more to it. Any clue?

They are ancient devices most often found as petroglyphs in Scotland, Northern England and Ireland (but also elsewhere -- I've seen them in Graubunden and in the Po Valley) and called "cup and ring". Archeologists can't yet attribute anything to them other than a pleasing pattern, so whatever their connection with 17C and 18C sporran cantles it is unlikely to be anything more than decorative.

[figheadair]

Awesome sporran! I wish I would have been the person who found that beauty! Makes you wonder how many other "treasures" are still buried in and around Scotland...waiting to be found. A good mate of mine, Sandy Macpherson, who lives in Edinburgh, has an old basket-hilt sword in which he found around the hills of Glen Banchor, buried under a bit of heather and peat. He stumbled across it whilst hill-walking as a young boy in the 1940's.

Cheers,

I've posted this before but here it is again.



This is a family sporran. What's of particular interest is the fact that the cantle is (I'm told) sand cast bronze and not brass. Doeskin bag with fully working catch. I guess it must be c1700-50.

[artificer]

I've posted this before but here it is again.



This is a family sporran. What's of particular interest is the fact that the cantle is (I'm told) sand cast bronze and not brass. Doeskin bag with fully working catch. I guess it must be c1700-50.

Good Grief Peter, I never tire of seeing that piece. Such a beauty!
ith:

[M. A. C. Newsome]

This one belongs to Sir Malcolm MacGregor of MacGregor, and if I recall correctly, the cantle is stamped with the date 1729.

[longhuntr74]

Peter and Matt...question for both of you. Are you aware if the bags on those 18th century cantles are also original or were they replaced at some point throughout the life of the sporran? They are both obviously old leather...especially the MacGregor one. Also...on the one that Peter posted (and I think I remember reading a thread before about this particular sporran but have forgotten...so I apologize if we're recovering old ground)...what is the purpose of the holes drilled in the face of the cantle? Were they from repairs to the latch mechanism?

[M. A. C. Newsome]

The sporran I pictured belongs to Sir Malcolm and so is not in my possession, but when he and I chatted briefly about it, he did not believe the bag was original, though he did not have any idea of who replaced it, or when.

[OC Richard]

About old sporrans in museums, we must be aware that these tell us the what but not the when.

The story of the bagpipe is full of such stuff, old sets in museums with fanciful stories/myths attached to them, but no concrete provenance. Or, in one famous case, a set of pipes with the date 1409 carved on them, which proved to be a 19th century fake.

So besides that cantle Matt posted with a date on it, we're in the dark about the when of the brass cantle, at least from material evidence.

So we turn to old portraits. Unfortunately it's often difficult to tell whether the cantle is supposed to be leather or metal.

Our ealiest clear depiction of Highland Dress, by Michael Wright c1660, shows no sporran, likewise The Piper To The Laird Grant, Richard Waitt, 1714. But its companion painting Alastair Grant Mor clearly shows a leather flap on the sporran, as does the portait of Lord Duffus c1710.

The portrait of James Moray by Jerimiah Davidson c1744 shows a grey sealskin sporran with matching flap.

The portrait of Sir Stuart Threipland by William Delacour c1755 appears to show a soft deerskin sporran with matching flap.

By the 1780s there are various paintings showing rectangular metal cantles. So where is there an 18th century portrait showing the semicircular brass cantle so often seen in museums?

About the circle decoration on old sporrans, it's a common ancient European motif often called "Goddess' Eyes".

There's a c13th century bone pipe from Wales which is covered with them.

Here's an 18th century Scottish bagpipe featuring them



They're more common on Bulgarian pipes, even today. Here's a Bulgarian bagpipe covered with them