Irish Kilt?

[MacSpadger]

An odd choice of words which could be very easily misinterpreted.

It's apparent from the rest of your post you don't deny the existence of bagpipes - of whatever type(s) - amongst the Irish. Rather, you are questioning the use of the term 'Irish Warpipes' and the authenticity of bagpipes of the various designs developed since the revival (sorry "revival") period.

Yes, that’s absolutely correct. There is a long history of bagpiping in Ireland, and I have provided some evidence of this. No problem at all. I put revival in inverted comma’s because, as in Scotland, there was probably more reinvention than reviving in the late 1800’s.

An Firstly, I can't see how the common use of the term 'Irish Warpipes' in modern English is of any consequence.

I have no problem with the 20th century use of the term “Irish warpipes”, meaning a two droned version of the Great Highland bagpipe, (with one tenor removed). However the London based bagpipe manufacturer Henry Starck and the author WH Grattan Flood sought to establish an antiquity for the “Irish Warpipe” as the national instrument of Ireland, despite overwhelming evidence that several different types of bagpipes were played, with the term “warpipe” never once being mentioned. Grattan Flood used the term in 1911 describing the increasing number of Irish pipe bands as a "revival" of the Irish warpipe.
Flood really goes off the wall in the "Irish Pipers" chapter of Pipes of War. He begins by saying that there "is ample evidence that the bagpipe was used in Pre-Christian Ireland". He then continues without any mention at all of what this evidence might be. His dating is bizarre, with no references at all. Uillean pipes appeared "about the year 1580". Around the year 1625 keys were added to the chanter. He states that while the Uillean pipe is capable of two full octaves, the war pipe is capable of only 8 notes, same as the "Scottish or Highland" version. 8 notes. For all his writing he doesn't even know how many notes can be played on the chanter. He even contradicts himself in the same paragraph, saying that piping in Ireland died out until it was revived in 1903 by Lord Castletown.
The book was derided in it’s place of publishing but sold very well in the USA.
The Irish bagpipe historian Sean Donnelly has written a great many articles and several books. In over 30 years of research he has provided lots of information hitherto undiscovered, 26 references to piping in Ireland in all. He has said in print on several occasions he has not once come across a native Irish reference to any bagpipe being called a warpipe. He came to the conclusion it was an English term, as English visitors to both Scotland and Ireland referred to "Warpipes", while the actual Scots and Irish did not.
Captain Edmund Burt was an Englishman sent to Scotland in 1730 and he published an account of his travels in the Highlands called 'Letters from a Gentleman in the North of Scotland. He gives varied detailed reports of Highland culture and calls Highland bagpipes "warpipes".
John Derrick was an English customs official who witnessed a campaign of warfare in Ireland in the 1570’s. He refers to the bagpipe as a “warpipe” and it’s believed that’s where Flood took his idea from. Much of the idea of the two large two droned bagpipe or "warpipe" came from the illustrations that accompanied Derrick's "Images of Ireland" from the 1570s, but the illustrations were not made by Derrick, who was a customs official, but from the workshop of the engraver John Daye in London. Daye never visited Ireland. They were not made by an eyewitness, and cannot be relied upon. Many of his engravers were from the Dutch and Germanic Lowlands and it’s a strong possibility that they used a print by Durer of a German piper for the Irish illustration. However, this image from someone who had never seen an Irish bagpipe was used by Flood in his writing and by Starck, who used it as the basis for his Dungannon bagpipe. The Dungannon was a commercial failure, so Starck began producing the familiar two drone warpipe instead, in fact he secured the government contract to do so by extolling it’s “ancient” properties.
Much earlier, even the English king Edward I, "Longshanks", the Hammer of the Scots, had 5 "pipes of war" in his entourage. So, the term warpipe seems to have English rather than Irish or Scottish roots.
This has not prevented people for searching for the ancient “Irish Warpipe”. Frank Timoney of New York offered a substantial cash reward in the 1990’s for anyone who was able to produce any evidence that it had ever actually existed. Sadly he passed away recently without ever seeing any takers.
I agree with your other observations entirely.

There are several accounts and depictions of Irish pipes that indicate they had drones. I find it strange that an illustration of a 15th century siege (do you have a link to it?) showing Irish bagpipes with no drones is so much more credible to you than any of these.

Yes, there are a great many descriptions of Irish bagpipes with drones, I do wish there was more visual evidence, I really do. As I said earlier, Sean Donnelly has uncovered 29 actual Irish references to bagpipes, including “smallpipes”, “bagpipes” "One pair of loud pipes for 20 shillings" and "One pair of Soft Pipes" for 6 shillings and and Eightpence. At least some of these would have drones, I would surmise. The illustration from Derrick’s “Image of Ireland” I admit I do have a problem with. It was not done by an eyewitness and the bagpipe looks like a very unrealistic version of a German Doodle sack. The bagpipe with no drones was done from life, or “in the quicke”. It’s the engraving taken from the contemporary scene from the oil painting at Cowdray Castle of the piper leading the Irish kerne serving under King Henry VIII at the seige of Boulougne, the bagpipe looks like a droneless bousine type, clutched to the chest rather than played under the arm, as was the European style of playing at the time. In a recent exhibition at the National Army Museum in Chelsea this image of the Kerne piper was enhanced and enlarged to many times it's original size, I have had a look at this but the detail is not clear enough to see the chanter details. I suspect it may be a double chanter. Sadly, I have no link.

If you think I'm winding up people for my own amusement, I must say I take that as a personal insult.

You haven't even proposed any alternative theory to the Irish myths and legends, much less tried to actually justify such a theory. Or perhaps you think the first Gaelic speaker crawled fully formed out of a hole in Mulngavie? Not very likely is it? (Quite apart from the fact that it is in the lowlands).

I am not necessarily saying that the population came en masse from Ireland, but it seems reasonable that the language and many aspects of the culture indeed did. Need I remind you that highlanders used to be referred to in Scotland as Erse (Irish)?

I am not a historian, and won't be writing a paper anytime soon, but you have failed to present a case that would convince me, and now you accuse me of trying to wind people up. I'd better not continue this discussion, as it cannot end well.

O’Callaghan, again, I get confused. I have nothing to propose or justify. I have been quite careful in my posts to provide references. These references are, more or less, what is being taught in Europe today. I’d say they were a viable alternative to the myths and legends, as you put it. I don’t need to provide a viable alternative, I’m simply pointing out what is taught, and what is continuing to be discovered. I’ll admit I don’t understand why you keep contradicting the output of very qualified people in the UK and Ireland, the people whose work I reference and whose decades of work you keep contradicting without reference or given reason. That’s why I can’t see if you are serious or not. I really don’t know. Your disagreements are not with me, but with people living in Ireland and Scotland who have worked very hard to delve into the commonalities in the histories of both countries. I’m merely repeating what is being aired in books, newspapers, magazines, television, etc, over here. I can’t see your point at all, is there a point?
I certainly would not comment on how people are educated in your country, but if you disagree with how people are educated over here, feel free to complain to the correct authorities, but, to be honest, I don’t think it will make much difference.
As for Gaelic, I began Gaelic studies in 1970 in Aberdeen. What we were taught was that it was an Indo European language, part of a family that had it’s roots in Greater Europe, Persia, and South Asia. It slowly developed as it spread, culturally if not with migration, across Europe over a thousand years or so. I don’t think the viewpoint has changed that much since then. No invasions, no crawling from holes. Yes, Highlanders were referred to as Erse by the English at times, as were the Cornish, Welsh, Cumbrians and other West Coast peoples. This was for political reasons and books such The Decline of the Celtic Languages by Victor Edward Durkacz go into this in greater depth than I ever could.
I make no claim for Milngavie/Muileann-Gaidh being Highland or Lowland. I live on the famous West Highland Way, seen as the start of the Highlands. I’m two minutes from Mugdock Castle and my garden is overlooked by the Kilpatrick Hills. Summers I get awfy’ bothered by midgies. That’s maybe as close as I’d like to be.