Question about red based tartans

[Guinness>water]

I have been enjoying all things Jacobite lately and have come across a question. I have seen several times and places that red was an expensive dye and was only worn by the more well to do folk to show how much money they had. Why then is there so many red based tartans, my clan being one(Maclaine of Lochbuie)?

Was red a popular color for regular folks pre 1747?

What colors/tartan would you guess a Maclaine clansman would have worn in 1745?

Thanks,

[Tobus]

I think that may be a myth. Most sources I've seen say that red dye was actually pretty inexpensive. In fact, it was likely one of the factors involved in the British Army adopting red coats. If red dye was that expensive, I doubt they would have put all their soldiers in red coats.

This wiki page explains it a little (and provides a reference to their statement about the cheapness of red dyes, which may be worth further investigation).

[figheadair]

I think that may be a myth. Most sources I've seen say that red dye was actually pretty inexpensive. In fact, it was likely one of the factors involved in the British Army adopting red coats. If red dye was that expensive, I doubt they would have put all their soldiers in red coats.

This wiki page explains it a little (and provides a reference to their statement about the cheapness of red dyes, which may be worth further investigation).

no, it's fact and not myth. The red of soldiers' coats was dyed with madder which was indeed cheaper and far, far more inferior to the cochineal red which is what is referred to in the context of tartan. Cochineal was also used to dye Officers’ coat which they had to pay for themselves and is why officers needed a private income.

Without exception the red in all the old pieces of tartan that I’ve had examined were dyed with cochineal. Further confirmation of the dye's expense and exclusive use is confirmed by its use in cardinals' robes.

[figheadair]

I have been enjoying all things Jacobite lately and have come across a question. I have seen several times and places that red was an expensive dye and was only worn by the more well to do folk to show how much money they had. Why then is there so many red based tartans, my clan being one(Maclaine of Lochbuie)?

Because the majority date from 1800 onwards when mass production made the use of cochineal, and other newly imported dyestuffs such as Turkey Red more affordable and from 1856 onwards the use of chemical dyes made virtually any colour possible relatively cheaply.

Was red a popular color for regular folks pre 1747?

Unlikely.

What colors/tartan would you guess a Maclaine clansman would have worn in 1745?

It would depend on their status and thus financial clout.

Thanks,[/QUOTE]

[Guinness>water]

If red dye was that expensive, I doubt they would have put all their soldiers in red coats.

Thats exactly what I was thinking, Tobus.

Thanks figheadair, I didnt know they were two different kinds of dye.

Why didnt the Highlanders use madder for the red in their tartans?

What do you think the main color in most pre 1745 tartans was? Blue, Brown, Green?

[Tobus]

Excellent info as always, figheadair. It does, however, seem very curious that the British used madder so extensively whilst the Scots seemingly had no idea. Given the relative poverty in the Highlands, you would think they would have started using it to dye their red yarn for tartan. Any thoughts on why the Scots never used it?

[be da veva]

Any thoughts on why the Scots never used it?

Probably because the English used it....

[madmacs]

What colors/tartan would you guess a Maclaine clansman would have worn in 1745?

Thanks,

Green black and white? Or a weathered version of... When did Lochbuie adopt the currently recognised tartan? Their hunting is blue right... ?

[figheadair]

Why didnt the Highlanders use madder for the red in their tartans?

See below - the answer to Tobus's similar question.

What do you think the main color in most pre 1745 tartans was? Blue, Brown, Green?

That's a really difficult question to answer with any sort of accuracy. It's a fact that a majority of extant C18th specimens are relatively fine and/or expertly woven and the majority of them are either red based or have lots of good quality (cochineal) red stripes. Add the fact that the of portraits of the period are of gentry and we can assume an upper class use of both. What the common Highlander would have worn would have been much more dependent on what they could afford/was locally available: browns, greens and various yellows would have been easily dyed with local dyes. Any blue or red would have been prized and so it's likely that fine stripes of either would have been included if an individual could afford it.

Excellent info as always, figheadair. It does, however, seem very curious that the British used madder so extensively whilst the Scots seemingly had no idea. Given the relative poverty in the Highlands, you would think they would have started using it to dye their red yarn for tartan. Any thoughts on why the Scots never used it?

I'm not saying that the Highlanders never used it, it's just that none or the surviving evidence supports it. Cochineal, although comparatively expensive, requires much less to dye to a given shade and it is also the only one of the two that gives a true scarlet. One of the traditional native dyes is Lady's Bedstraw which is of the madder family and does give red although it's a pain to use in bulk because the roots (the dye source) are very, very fine and difficult to dig up. Add to that the fact that the introduction of cochineal coincided approximately with the adoption of the belted plaid and it just may be that it was a case of right dye at the right time.

[Phil]

Probably because the English used it....

I hate to disagree but the economy of the Vale of Leven depended on the production of Turkey Red from the madder root from the late eighteenth century. It was a dye more suited to the cotton industry so perhaps used less in the woollen fabric industry.