How will the market change?

[Alan H]

Oh no?

Whoah!!! double whoah....

When did THAT model hit? That's GOT to be made offshore.

That kilt, right there is a total Game-changer.

[O'Callaghan]

We will never see the $50 contemporary kilt..... At least not in the next 10 years.

Kiltmart has them for $70 right now. I have my eye on getting a green one.

(ETA: And I read just a couple of posts further down that Tobus linked to where UT Kilts does indeed have them for $50. All the same, they are like 99% of cargo kilt vendors and offer olive green but not a true green. Kiltmart does have a proper shade of green, as does Tartanista, but the latter cost more than at Kiltmart. Why green? For Ireland, of course.)

[Geoff Withnell]

And let us not forget the surprise 5.11 Tactical had with their Tactical kilt April Fool's joke last year, when they ended up selling almost 4000 of them. I suspect some enterprising venture capitalist may note an underserved market.

Kiltmart has them for $70 right now. I have my eye on getting a green one.

(ETA: And I read just a couple of posts further down that Tobus linked to where UT Kilts does indeed have them for $50. All the same, they are like 99% of cargo kilt vendors and offer olive green but not a true green. Kiltmart does have a proper shade of green, as does Tartanista, but the latter cost more than at Kiltmart. Why green? For Ireland, of course.)

[Tobus]

In this observation, the last truly enormous "clothing revolution" was when blue cotton denim farm-ranch trousers went from hipster-punk (James Dean and Marlon Brando in 1955) to Hippie (with bell bottoms in 1969) to today's nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear.

Do kilts "have what it takes" to make even a tiny fraction of that progression? Again in this opinion, they are seen by the vast lowing hordes as (tartan) ethnic-Scottish and pipe band and at very best, rare (modern, not prolific) "rebellious youth" garb.

The very thing you describe with "nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear" is one of the reasons that I actually wouldn't want the kilt to go mainstream. I like that the kilt is a special thing, with a small minority of enthusiasts. Traditional kilts have a unique culture and history, and modern kilts have a sort of 'underground' culture attached to them. I don't think I'd be at all excited about wearing it if it became as ubiquitous as today's blue jeans. And too, I'm sure the modern urban fashionistas would tweak it into something very effeminate and unattractive like they've done with modern blue jeans. I'd rather leave well enough alone and keep contemporary kilts in the 'rugged outdoor wear' style!

Whoah!!! double whoah....

When did THAT model hit? That's GOT to be made offshore.

That kilt, right there is a total Game-changer.

From what I've read, I'm pretty sure they're made in Pakistan.

But yeah, that's going to be the natural evolution of contemporary cargo-style kilts if they are ever going to start to approach the same price point as a pair of cargo pants or cargo shorts. Virtually all of the major labels in trousers and shorts have their goods made in Asia. And the general public will never see contemporary kilts as a viable option if their price remains north of $75 or even $50. It will always be a specialty-market item unless it can compete on price with its equivalent in trousers or shorts. So UTKilts is probably on the leading edge in that respect.

I've read from some members who bought UTKilts that the quality isn't the best, and that they can start to fall apart after a few washings. But that's not really any different than most other consumer textile goods that are mass-produced in Asia, either. The consumer market doesn't seem overly concerned with quality any more. Just price. So if contemporary kilts are going to go mainstream like other articles of clothing, they'll have to go down that same road of mediocre quality in order to get the price low enough to be comparable. So again, UTKilts is probably the leader on that particular step of the evolution.

[creagdhubh]

The very thing you describe with "nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear" is one of the reasons that I actually wouldn't want the kilt to go mainstream. I like that the kilt is a special thing, with a small minority of enthusiasts. Traditional kilts have a unique culture and history, and modern kilts have a sort of 'underground' culture attached to them. I don't think I'd be at all excited about wearing it if it became as ubiquitous as today's blue jeans. And too, I'm sure the modern urban fashionistas would tweak it into something very effeminate and unattractive like they've done with modern blue jeans. I'd rather leave well enough alone and keep contemporary kilts in the 'rugged outdoor wear' style!

Well said, Tobus.

[Whidbey78]

The very thing you describe with "nauseatingly boring omnipresent unisex world-wear" is one of the reasons that I actually wouldn't want the kilt to go mainstream. I like that the kilt is a special thing, with a small minority of enthusiasts. Traditional kilts have a unique culture and history, and modern kilts have a sort of 'underground' culture attached to them. I don't think I'd be at all excited about wearing it if it became as ubiquitous as today's blue jeans. And too, I'm sure the modern urban fashionistas would tweak it into something very effeminate and unattractive like they've done with modern blue jeans. I'd rather leave well enough alone and keep contemporary kilts in the 'rugged outdoor wear' style!

I agree on this. I don't wear a kilt (tartan, camo, or other) to be different, but because I like to. The fact that it isn't that common adds to the appeal. There is another current thread about kilt length, which can be found here, that shows a pic of five men walking toward the camera in "kilts" of various styles. The man on the left is decked out rather nicely (though too matchy-matchy), as is the guy in the center, but two of the other three look as if they raided their mothers' closets. The one in the leather jacket, second from left, looks less like a kilt and more like a jacket is tied around his waist. That's what I fear if the kilt were to grow into a mainstream garment. We've all seen the various kilt-inspired garments that have been posted here, mostly for a quick laugh. Fortunately, the stuff they put on the fashion runways, like concept cars, almost never go into production, though elements of these creations sometimes do.

A little more growth in the market is fine. I really hope it happens since competition leads to innovation, and often, better products more suited to the customer. Mass-customization is a good thing in most markets, and the kilt market is no exception (except in Utilikilts case it seems). Acceptance of the kilt has grown, and that may be more important in the long run than the number of people actually wearing it. That's getting into social concerns and is outside the scope of this thread, so I'll just stop there.

From what I've read, I'm pretty sure they're made in Pakistan.

But yeah, that's going to be the natural evolution of contemporary cargo-style kilts if they are ever going to start to approach the same price point as a pair of cargo pants or cargo shorts. Virtually all of the major labels in trousers and shorts have their goods made in Asia. And the general public will never see contemporary kilts as a viable option if their price remains north of $75 or even $50. It will always be a specialty-market item unless it can compete on price with its equivalent in trousers or shorts. So UTKilts is probably on the leading edge in that respect.

I've read from some members who bought UTKilts that the quality isn't the best, and that they can start to fall apart after a few washings. But that's not really any different than most other consumer textile goods that are mass-produced in Asia, either. The consumer market doesn't seem overly concerned with quality any more. Just price. So if contemporary kilts are going to go mainstream like other articles of clothing, they'll have to go down that same road of mediocre quality in order to get the price low enough to be comparable. So again, UTKilts is probably the leader on that particular step of the evolution.

I agree that these kilts can't compete in the mainstream at Utilikilts prices, or even half their price. The only option is overseas manufacturing and cheaper materials to reduce costs and stay in the price range of a pair of Dockers. Even if they managed to get the selling price to <$30, it still would not become a viable alternative to jeans or casual pants for a very large portion of the public, and for varied reasons. Setting aside personal preferences, social acceptance, etc, the fact remains that at $75 one generally isn't getting a very good kilt, even less so at $50. If most customers can buy a $20-30 pair of jeans or shorts at Walmart and get a lot of use from them, why would they spend two to three times that for something that falls apart after going through the wash a few times? With a down economy people are gravitating toward the polar ends of the spectrum--buying what they can afford easily or buying the absolute best they can get their hands on. That leaves Wally World jeans as the more logical option, and if the desire is really there for a modern kilt, saving up for one good one that will last. Unless they can get the quality to be competitive with RK, UK, etc, and keep the price <$50-75, there's just no way they can grab more of the mainstream market.

As one of the many DIYers here, I've been tempted to buy UT's base model and add a few bar-tacks and/or rivets to beef them up in the areas that people are talking about them coming apart. At $50 it's still nearly twice what I usually pay for materials to make one, but could be a viable option once it's weaknesses have been addressed, which would likely take little time compared to making something comparable myself. I'm fine with buying something for a tolerable price and having to do a little work on it, but the majority of the public is the opposite and wants something affordable, fairly well made, that will fit their needs or wants out of the box. That simply can't be supplied in this price range, and , as Alan has pointed out before, is hard to do at a much higher price as well.

I think the whole market will remain fairly stagnant for a while or will even shrink. The scenario of UK scaling back seems viable as well. The most logical business decision is outsourcing the manufacturing, but I do respect their stance on keeping domestic labor. If they have to scale down their operations in the future it will be much easier with domestic labor. It's often hard to maintain small contracts with overseas manufaturers, so they could be forced to send their manufacturing to contracted individuals (which is often risky), and accept a higher per-unit cost, or rebuild their original operation here, which would be costly and may take a long time to recover from. UK has a good business model, but not great. They are rejecting customization, even on a large scale, in the interest of maintaining a specific operating cost. This may, or may not be, a case of stepping over a dollar to pick up a dime, but it's their business to run.

[Alan H]

In regards to UK not doing customization of individual items, that makes sense if they're trying to go the way of mass production. Nobody asks Levis Strauss to customize a pair of dockers trousers, eh?

Honestly, $75 is too much money to get a "mainstream" kilt out there. Really..... $50 is too much, when I can walk into any of a number of mens clothing departments at chain stores and buy a pair of pants for $35. For $50 you're not getting a "nice" kilt, and there's absolutely no way it's going to be made with first world labor. Everybody agrees on that.

Once upon a time, another industry that started as almost cottage industries, "went global". I remember when North Face and Sierra Designs both started taking part of their production lines offshore. North Face started a sub-line of equipment called "Windy Pass by North Face" and marketed it as their "value" brand. The name only existed for about two years, until North Face management decided that the quality they were getting from their offshore manufacturing plants was up to snuff and then they moved ALL of North Face production (almost) to offshore plants. I was reminded of this when I recently acquired a tent from the Luminous Joans aunt and uncle, who'd bought it 20+ years ago and used it about twice. It had sat in their garage. I hadn't see a "Windy Pass" product in *Years*.

Anyway, I wonder if "UTkilts" is Utilikilts "Windy Pass". It will be interesting to see what they do in the next year to 18 months. If they get outside investors who acquire a major percentage share of the company, you can be pretty sure that the "made in the USA" philosophy will change.
The truth is....as I know from researching the "Earth Kilt" project. That when your volume is only a couple of thousand of units per year, it's actually cheaper to produce the product locally. However, once volume goes way up, it's cheaper to go offshore. You can bet that the "made in the USA" sticker will quietly disappear when that happens, because the truth is that while a lot of people LOVE to scream about domestic goods, the overwhelming majority of people choose one product over another based overwhelmingly on up-front-price.

[Alan H]

I was recently at the Enumclaw Highland Games and I walked into a booth set up for a small-time contemporary kiltmaker. They were nice guys. The product was built very well, they've been reviewed on this forum. I was impressed, in fact the only reason I wouldn't own one is that I don't much like how they shape their over-apron. Aside from that, I think the things are da bomb.

I took their card, and I took a couple of photos.

About 3 weeks later I went down to my local outdoor-backpacking-mil surplus-carhart-dickies store and showed them the pictures and gave them the card. They thanked me, and said "not happening". I asked them why.

ANSWER: They'd have to buy the kilts from the manufacturer. It costs the store money to stock them. If they do that, will they make their money back, with profit, faster than if they were to sell something else? In other words, there are only so many racks of clothing that they can set up in their store. They could put ... for example.... Columbia fleece jackets on a rack. Or... they could put kilts. Which one is likely to make them money within a reasonable time? They KNOW they can make money with Columbia fleece jackets, or carhart work pants. They don't KNOW they can make money with kilts. Why should they take that chance?

I can hardly argue with their logic.

[Whidbey78]

That's very true Alan. Retailers don't stock things that they are not confident they can sell--not well managed ones. This is one of the reasons you will see certain items in specialty stores--they are addressing the demands of a specific part of the market. Hot Topic isn't likely to start stocking power tools any time soon, and Home Depot isn't likely to start doing ear and tongue piercings either. Big, less specialized retailers, such as Wal Mart and Target don't usually move on trends until they're established and they believe they can sell the items at a price that will pull business from the specialty shops. So, if the next big "thing" is carrying your stuff in a bowling bag, the trendy shops will jump on it. Next year, if the trend continues and hasn't died out Wal Mart may start selling them...maybe. A year after the "trucker hat" trend popped up, that's all Wally World seemed to have. Now, they've moved on to little fedoras and such. In reality, that's probably the most that would happen--a fad would start, trendy shops would sell kilts by the truckload for a few months, Wal Mart would eventually put some on the racks, they'll eventually wind up on the clearance rack, the general public will forget about it until it pops up on a VH1 show and they'll say "Oh yeah. I had one of those for a little while." Those who were wearing them before will still be around, though a few may get scared off by the fad.

We already have our specialty shops. Some are online only, some are brick and mortar, some are click and mortar. They cater to us pretty well. In a way, the kilt market is much like comic books. We prefer to deal with people who know the product, have special stuff, stock more than the latest thing, in an environment populated with like-minded people. You can get the latest Batman at Safeway, but most fans will still go to the comic book store. UK, RK, USAK, etc., will be around for a while I think, just like some comic book stores have been around for a long time, as long as they continue to match our demand and we aren't abandoned for an attempt to jump into the mainstream.

Overall, I'd say we, as consumers, have a fairly wide variety of choices in kilts and related items. Of the various niche markets I've looked at, we seem to fare the best with adequate competition resulting in variety and quality. Pricing can seem high sometimes, but niche markets tend to operate that way, and when low-price alternatives appear they lack the quality and uniqueness we often seek. Those products are aimed at people already using them as a low-ball alternative and as a low-risk introductory product. A UT lacks the durability and quality of UK and RK, but someone might part with $50 or $65 to try it out. If they like it, they can go get a better product armed with a little experience and knowledge. If they don't, it can go to the yard sale or hang in the closet among the trucker hats and such, and they're only out fifty bucks. Most would prefer to risk that over the higher priced UK, so those companies like UT are sitting just about where they should right now. They may be the only ones able to go mainstream, but they are not likely to ever get the chance.

[RockyR]

Sorry I'm a bit late to this one. I'll throw in my $.02...

Well, I've been interacting on this forum for almost 7 years now, and "way back then" we were all just so sure that "kilts" were going to be the Big Thing and that all kinds of guys were going to be wearing them, and Carhart and Levi Strauss would be marketing kilts, yadda yadda yadda. The thought was that they'd soon be made offshore by cheap labor and the price would come down to very roughly what a pair of pants costs.

Hasnt' happened. The contemporary kilt market remains dominated by the Utilikilt, and it seems to be that the "fashion buzz" of "kilts" has kind of come and gone. I see no more kilts around campus here on The Farm than I ever did...which is for all intents and purposes, none. It's been a *very* long time since I've seen another kilt downtown.

With that in mind, I'm making some "statements" which can be up for discussion. I'm interested in what you all think.

1.) The contemporary kilt market is dominated by Utilikilt, and the entire rest of the contemporary market is made up of cottage industry or small businesses which employ at most, about 4-5 people.

I don't think many of us truly believe kilts will be 'mainstream' and that's OK. We may WANT it to be (if for no other reason than to give consumers easier choices of when / where / how much to spend for a kilt). With becoming mainstream comes the threat (for lack of a better term) of being a fad. With fads comes the inevitable drop off and crash. That's not what I want for the industry.

My prediction:

2.) Within 5 years, Utilikilt will have tried to go "public"...meaning finding an outside buyer/investor or selling public stock. To cut costs, cut the price to the consumer and increase the profit margin, they will offshore their production. The price of their kilts will in fact come down, in fact WAY down, but essentially no more people will buy them, than have already done so, and the company will either fold or go back to being a small business employing <10 people.

I completely disagree. I don't think they'll ever go 'public' (in a stock market sense) b/c the company is just too small to do so. They'd have to be moving over a hundred thousand units each year to think about going public. The scale just isn't there. The risk (to potential investors) on a potential 'fad' type business (that's how they'd view it) isn't worth the potential reward.

Likewise, I don't think UK would ever go off shore for production. That's been the core of their company mentality and I don't think they'd change that unless they sold the business. It would alienate many of their customers. I think they'd cut other costs / corners before doing that. I don't think Steve would ever sell the business. He has too much fun.

The rest of the contemporary kilt market will be made up of other small businesses spread around the country, doing approximately the same amount of work that they're doing now.


When I mean contemporary kilt, I mean non-tartan models like Utilikilts, Amerikilts, R-Kilts, Freedom kilts (non-tartan models) , the X Kilt, NeoKilt and so on.

I agree. There will always be a niche for artisans for people willing to pay for bespoke work.

Whoah!!! double whoah....

When did THAT model hit? That's GOT to be made offshore.

That kilt, right there is a total Game-changer.

I don't think that's a "game changer" at all. I've seen the same exact 'utility model' for sale from several different Pakistani kilt retailers. Prices range from $50 to $100 for basically the same product. Will it hurt the contemporary market? Yes, in the same way the Pakistani tartan kilts hurt the traditional market. However, people will still seek out quality (which these aren't IMHO) and will look to bespoke makers like Rkilts, Freedom Kilts, etc. They'll also look to "trusted name brands" like Utilikilts b/c they know what they're getting (UK's have been consistent in quality over the years which is the hallmark of a good business).


Also, the cost of kilts was brought up. Someone mentioned that they won't be "main stream" until they're under $50. Here are the issues with that.

1. The amount of cloth needed to make a Utilikilt is probably 3 to 4 times the amount of cloth needed to make the same sized pair of jeans. that's 3 to 4 times the material cost.

2. The amount of LABOR required to make a Utility Kilt, EVEN WITH "production line" processes, is probably 3 or 4 times the length of time than a pair of jeans.

3. The pockets alone are a good bit more involved. Look at the side pockets (with multiple compartments) on a Utility Kilt. Those aren't 30 second pockets... they probably take a 4 to 5 times the labor of a flat 'patch style' pocket.

With keeping the above thoughts in mind, wouldn't it make sense for a Utility style kilt to cost, even WITH the same facility and production capabilities of a Levis Strauss or Lee Jeans, 3 to 4 times the cost of a pair of jeans? Assuming no one is getting RICH off of making Utility style kilts, I don't think the numbers are far from the truth. Not saying that would help the case for "mass appeal", but it would be understandable.