dress shirt question

[artificer]

Traditionally a turn down collar is worn for black tie and a wing collar for white tie. It's only a general rule that is often ignored these days but the point is that a turn down collar is, strictly speaking, the correct shirt to wear

Traditionally since when?

I have always understood this to be the general case as well, with the wing collar having it's origins with tail coats, and the turned collar coming into vogue with the "dinner" jacket some time later (in the 20's and 30's) as a casual alternative to white tie.

For those interested in the history of men's formal dress, a fascinating read can be found HERE.

They also have a pretty solid (if conservative) guide to the dos and don't of formal dressing today- their guide to classic tuxedo looks may be found HERE.

ith:

[Chas]

I would wear a turn down collar -

Unless,

Your father is going to be in a wing collar.

If you are going to match jackets, then it is only a little thing to match collars as well.

Regards

Chas

[Braemar Kiltmaker]

davidg is correct ... a wing collar shirt exposes the band of the tie and was only ever intended to be used with white pique tie & vest, where the band would be unnoticed. That's where the designations "white tie" or "black tie" came from, indicating the degree of formality of an occasion. These days, when men's formal dress is most often seen as only an accessory to what the ladies are wearing, AND when formal dress is not a regular part of most men's lives, we often see men looking like they are in costume rather than dressing with the elegance of former days. Ron.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

davidg is correct ... a wing collar shirt exposes the band of the tie and was only ever intended to be used with white pique tie & vest, where the band would be unnoticed. That's where the designations "white tie" or "black tie" came from, indicating the degree of formality of an occasion.

Actually, while wing collars are required for formal evening dress (white tie) they are, and always have been, proper for semi-formal attire (black tie) as well. Fold over collars really don't make much of an appearance with black tie until the mid-to late 1930s, and were not firmly entrenched as part of black tie until after WWII, at which time collars tended to become attached to the shirt, rather than a separate item.

The choice between a standing collar or "turnover" collar with black tie is really up to the individual, although the following guidelines (from the 1950s) may be of some assistance in making the choice. Generally, turnover collars are best suited to less formal black tie events; dinners, the theater or opera, etc. Wing collars should be worn if the invitation states white tie/black tie, or one is attending a more formal evening event, and this would include any dinner where the hostess/host has indicated the presence of a "guest of honour".

These days, when men's formal dress is most often seen as only an accessory to what the ladies are wearing, AND when formal dress is not a regular part of most men's lives, we often see men looking like they are in costume rather than dressing with the elegance of former days. Ron.

I agree that it's sad that men (and women) no longer dress for the occasion, as it takes little or no extra effort to dress well and dress properly.

[Tobus]

If it were me, I'd wear the fold-over collar. Especially since you're not the groom.

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

If it were me, I'd wear the fold-over collar. Especially since you're not the groom.

I'd wear the fold over collar because it's more comfortable...

[artificer]

I'd wear the fold over collar because it's more comfortable...

It's more comfortable AND more flattering to more necks. Not everyone is a graceful swan, you know.

ith:

[creagdhubh]

Actually, while wing collars are required for formal evening dress (white tie) they are, and always have been, proper for semi-formal attire (black tie) as well. Fold over collars really don't make much of an appearance with black tie until the mid-to late 1930s, and were not firmly entrenched as part of black tie until after WWII, at which time collars tended to become attached to the shirt, rather than a separate item.

The choice between a standing collar or "turnover" collar with black tie is really up to the individual, although the following guidelines (from the 1950s) may be of some assistance in making the choice. Generally, turnover collars are best suited to less formal black tie events; dinners, the theater or opera, etc. Wing collars should be worn if the invitation states white tie/black tie, or one is attending a more formal evening event, and this would include any dinner where the hostess/host has indicated the presence of a "guest of honour".

I agree that it's sad that men (and women) no longer dress for the occasion, as it takes little or no extra effort to dress well and dress properly.

***

My vote is for the turn-down (spread) collar as well. This is what I wear almost 100% of the time.




Cheers,

[Dixiecat]

https://www.paulfredrick.com/special/special.aspx

Friend told me about this deal for shirts with sizing customized for the purchaser. Not quite bespoke, but the price is pretty darn good.

[Tobus]

Thank you for posting that, Dixiecat! At that price, I just had to give it a whirl and order one. Plain white shirts aren't really my cup of tea for kilt-wearing, but it'll come in handy for other purposes.