For formal wear dirk and belt vs waistcoat

**Geoff Withnell** · 1st November 12, 05:19 AM

Ok, I know this topic has been discussed, but I am asking for fresh advice. I'm not promising to follow it, but I am interested in the rabble's input. On November 10th, Michele and I will be attending a Marine Corps Birthday Ball. Dress is full on formal, ladies in long gowns, active duty personnel in Dress Blue or Mess Dress, etc. Lacking a PC or doublet, I will be in my black Argyle, white pleated shirt with studs and black bowtie, Leatherneck or (if Steve gets it finished and to me) Dress Blue kilt, formal sporran, red piper hose, highly shined black shoes. My indecision is this- I recently acquired a dress dirk, which of course would require a dirk belt to wear. I also have a black waistcoat matching the argyle, that I like the look of. I do not like waistcoats and belts worn together. Opinions?

**Jock Scot** · 1st November 12, 05:30 AM

Ok from the other side of the pond, but over here the event and style of your attire would not warrant a dirk, you are in civilian attire after all, my advice is to leave it at home and would solve the belt problem too.

**Chas** · 1st November 12, 05:50 AM

I agree with Jock. In the UK, I cannot think of an occasion when I would wear a dirk.

I do not like waistcoats and belts worn together.

If you are wearing a dirk then the belt is worn over the waistcoat. It becomes a feature. Looks sloppy to my mind, but that is how it is done.

Regards

Chas

**MacMillan of Rathdown** · 1st November 12, 06:21 AM

Geoff, at events of this sort I always ask myself "If I was in uniform, would I wear my sword?" If the answer is "no", then I leave the dirk at home.

**Tobus** · 1st November 12, 06:43 AM

Originally Posted by Jock Scot

Ok from the other side of the pond, but over here the event and style of your attire would not warrant a dirk, you are in civilian attire after all, my advice is to leave it at home and would solve the belt problem too.

Maybe I'm reading more into it than you meant, but are you saying that a dirk is never warranted for civilian attire? Or just for this event where he will be in civilian attire amongst military uniforms?

Given that this is a military ball and he will be in civilian attire, I would tend to agree that a dirk might be a tad out of place, or look affected. Were it a different (i.e. specific to Highland attire) event, like a Burns supper perhaps, the dirk would be more appropriate.

In any case, I wouldn't think that wearing a waistcoat, with a dirk belt over it and a dirk hanging from it, under an Argyll jacket, would be ideal. It's certainly been done before, but seems like a less-than-ideal way to wear a dirk. It may end up being partially covered by the jacket. A dirk belt over a doublet seems like the best option, although it doesn't sound like an option in this case.

**Jock Scot** · 1st November 12, 07:02 AM

[QUOTE=Tobus;1132624]Maybe I'm reading more into it than you meant, but are you saying that a dirk is never warranted for civilian attire? Or just for this event where he will be in civilian attire amongst military uniforms?

Given that this is a military ball and he will be in civilian attire, I would tend to agree that a dirk might be a tad out of place, or look affected. Were it a different (i.e. specific to Highland attire) event, like a Burns supper perhaps, the dirk would be more appropriate.[QUOTE]

Indeed you are reading more into what I have suggested.

As a general rule, as a civilian at military events you go as a civilian(decorations may,or, may not be worn depending on your host and of course the event)-----even though you may well be a retired military man-------and normally for black tie events the dirk is gilding the lilly even at a Burns night, unless of course, you happen to be giving the address. In that circumstance, I would advise "accidentally forgetting" your own dirk and use someone else's! Be warned, haggis juices, wedding cakes, etc., are absolute murder on blades unless they are scrupulously cleaned , almost immediately, by those who know about these things.

**Geoff Withnell** · 1st November 12, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by MacMillan of Rathdown

Geoff, at events of this sort I always ask myself "If I was in uniform, would I wear my sword?" If the answer is "no", then I leave the dirk at home.

Interesting. I didn't have my own sword, back in the day. Some that did, indeed do wear their swords. More among officers than NCOs like myself, but some NCOs do wear their swords. I am comfortable wearing a sword, as I spent two years in a Reserve Training Detachment, and we had the collateral duty of being the ceremonial unit for our area. So when Marine Color Guards were needed, parades, funerals, etc, we were tasked with the duty, and I frequently carried a sword as Color Guard commander. I like wearing a sword. I was in a saber drill team in college. But for a ball, unless you are part of the ceremony, you arrive with it, check it, and pick it up again when you leave. Another consideration is that, being under arms, I would have to remain covered, which would also be a pain.

**flyrod6057** · 1st November 12, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Geoff Withnell

Interesting. I didn't have my own sword, back in the day. Some that did, indeed do wear their swords. More among officers than NCOs like myself, but some NCOs do wear their swords. I am comfortable wearing a sword, as I spent two years in a Reserve Training Detachment, and we had the collateral duty of being the ceremonial unit for our area. So when Marine Color Guards were needed, parades, funerals, etc, we were tasked with the duty, and I frequently carried a sword as Color Guard commander. I like wearing a sword. I was in a saber drill team in college. But for a ball, unless you are part of the ceremony, you arrive with it, check it, and pick it up again when you leave. Another consideration is that, being under arms, I would have to remain covered, which would also be a pain.

Something to consider: wearing the Marine NCO sword is properly reserved for someone who will be commanding troops. While all Marine NCOs "rate" the sword, only the guy out front of the formation should be wearing one. The only exception I know of is when the "staff" are to pass in review, they also wear swords.

Now...having said all that....

I agree with the previous posters that wearing the dirk isn't a great idea at the ball. Some overzealous Sergeant Major might decide it's something you shouldn't be wearing! More likely, no one will even notice. Still, unless you're sporting a regulation doublet (a nearly identical cut to a Marine dress blues coat) or the like, a dirk doesn't really fit the theme. Would you wear a dirk with a blazer?? Doubtful. I would personally forego the dirk. Just my two cents.

Have a blast!

Semper Fidelis,
Brad Flanagan
Gunnery Sergeant
USMC (Ret.)

**Geoff Withnell** · 1st November 12, 07:09 PM

Gunny, you are of course absolutely correct.

As far as having a blast, the Cryppies (Marine Crytologic Support Battalion) who are the hosts of the Ball I'm going to, throw one heckofa party. I did love the invocation by the Ft Meade Naval Chaplain last year. Said all the right words, fallen comrades, traditions, etc. Concluded with "And may G-d always give us the strength to do our duty - and right now our duty is to celebrate! Amen!

Originally Posted by flyrod6057

Something to consider: wearing the Marine NCO sword is properly reserved for someone who will be commanding troops. While all Marine NCOs "rate" the sword, only the guy out front of the formation should be wearing one. The only exception I know of is when the "staff" are to pass in review, they also wear swords.

Now...having said all that....

I agree with the previous posters that wearing the dirk isn't a great idea at the ball. Some overzealous Sergeant Major might decide it's something you shouldn't be wearing! More likely, no one will even notice. Still, unless you're sporting a regulation doublet (a nearly identical cut to a Marine dress blues coat) or the like, a dirk doesn't really fit the theme. Would you wear a dirk with a blazer?? Doubtful. I would personally forego the dirk. Just my two cents.

Have a blast!

Semper Fidelis,
Brad Flanagan
Gunnery Sergeant
USMC (Ret.)

**OC Richard** · 8th November 12, 05:47 AM

Well I'm just a civilian, but still I like to "dress the part" when I'm hired to perform at any sort of function, and when I've been hired to pipe at military functions (weddings/balls/etc) where the men are in Dress uniform wearing swords, I tend to do the same. Is it "correct"? I don't know.

BTW a dirk belt isn't necessary when wearing a dirk, and there is military precedent: in the Highland Battalions, officers would wear Blue Patrol Dress, and at times would wear a dirk. This dirk was worn without belt, the dirk hanger going through a slot in the side of the Blue Patrol tunic and suspended from within.

On many occasions (many years ago, not recently) I have worn a dirk while piping at formal events while wearing a Prince Charlie, and I hung the dirk either from the belt of the Belted Plaid (often known by the misnomer "drummers' plaid") or from the strap on the kilt itself. Not "proper" I am sure, but it allows the dirk to more or less appear from under the waistcoat making a dirk belt unnecessary.