POLL: 2013 "Kilt Census"

[rondo]

I don't think that is the issue Rondo.

Those who make a living out of wording polls in the political arena use this to their advantage every day.

I get what you are saying Steve...makes sense and your knowledge is far greater on this than mine. I have found when kilting up I tend to go for a more contemporary style as it fits my daily life, my comfort level, and my confidence level better than full on traditional dress.
Rondo

[CMcG]

I don't think that is the issue Rondo.

As I read this poll I see two things that I must bring out.

The first is that those of us who wear any other type of kilt that full traditional, in a fully traditional manner are often shouted down here. We have lost a lot of members because they do not feel welcome here. I wonder how many members have not voted on this poll for that very reason.

Then there is this poll itself.

This poll is skewed by the wording of the questions. Skewed towards the traditional outlook. Those of us who wear the kilt everyday, or wear and view it as just clothing probably haven't felt that there is an appropriate option available in this poll.

I personally have not voted on this poll because none of the options, as worded, fit how I feel about the kilt and how I get dressed ievery morning.

I personally don't abide by the rules of TCHD. In fact I go out of my way to avoid any resemblance to it. But I also don't wear a MUG. I do wear a variety of kilts. From Tartans to solids but none of them would fit in any of your categories.

The way the options are worded give only two choices. Traditional or MUG. Nothing in between. But a MUG is only one very particular type of Garment. That acronym only fits the Utilikilt type of garment.

A USA Kilt is not a MUG. Nor is a Freedom Kilt. So the way the options are worded leave me completely out.

An interesting poll but in my opinion far from a fair or impartial poll. It is a fact that the wording of any poll will give the results the pollster wanted in the first place. Those who make a living out of wording polls in the political arena use this to their advantage every day.

Steve, I guess I should have put a "none of the above" option in there, eh? Oops

I'm not any kind of trained pollster, nor do I have a political agenda. This poll was merely an attempt to take stock of some of the kilt wearing preferences of our current membership. Perhaps you would like to redo the poll with a more inclusive set of questions?

It is understandable that the wording of questions always has an influence on the answers that are given. I tried to mitigate that somewhat by the lengthy commentary I gave in the OP and I recognized that there are kilts that don't fit neatly into a traditional/modern bifurcation. It should be noted that I used both the term modern kilt and MUG in one option, though I didn't say they were the same thing I guess the syntax of the question should have been Modern Kilts + MUGs.

The categories I intended were based primarily on appearance, as opposed to construction; the overall look of the kilt and the style that the kilt is worn in. Does it look traditional or does it look modern? Is it worn THCD style or not? I don't think I've ever seen or heard of anyone wearing a MUG with THCD accoutrements, so it didn't make sense to have that as an option Maybe I could have had a Modern Kilts, Worn the Traditional Way, but that seems to be a bit of an oxymoron...

I know, Steve, you prefer the term "contemporary kilt" for your Freedom Kilts. A tartan Freedom kilt basically looks like a trad kilt, despite the design tweaks. If you wear it as everyday clothing, then that option is Traditional Kilt, in Contemporary Ways. A Freedom kilt in a non-traditional material (say poly-cotton), tends to look more modern even if it doesn't have cargo pockets (it is not quite like a "MUG" or utility kilt), so that would still fall into the Modern + MUG category, which covers both. I have also seen pictures of you dressed in THCD (tartan kilt, Argyll jacket et al.), so you probably should have voted the same as I voted: 6) Modern Kilts (MUGs) + Traditional Kilts, Traditional and Contemporary Ways.

Are there any other members who didn't vote because they couldn't find a category that suited them? Please post a comment!

[Jock Scot]

Don't be down hearted Colin, hindsight is a wonderful thing and as I found out, getting the questions dead right and to cover all the aspects to produce a 100% coverage is almost impossible for amateurs like us. For what its worth, the suggestions that so helpfully come after the survey has started, or even finished seem so obvious and annoyingly so, after the event. Still nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh?

[CMcG]

Don't be down hearted Colin, hindsight is a wonderful thing and as I found out, getting the questions dead right and to cover all the aspects to produce a 100% coverage is almost impossible for amateurs like us. For what its worth, the suggestions that so helpfully come after the survey has started, or even finished seem so obvious and annoyingly so, after the event. Still nothing ventured, nothing gained, eh?

Quite right, Jock. Even if our amateur surveys aren't perfect and must be taken with a grain (or two!) of salt, I think they still have some value.

[McElmurry]

Folks seem to be using MUG in a way that is not logical to me. Isn't male un-bifurcated garment (MUG) an all-inclusive term that includes all kilts?

(Please don't ask me to draw a venn diagram)

[CMcG]

Folks seem to be using MUG in a way that is not logical to me. Isn't male un-bifurcated garment (MUG) an all-inclusive term that includes all kilts?

(Please don't ask me to draw a venn diagram)

Technically I think you are right. In usage, however, many people seem to refer to utility/cargo kilts as MUGs, though some people may also use it to describe any non-traditional kilt. People who wear non-traditional kilts -- but still consider them kilts -- tend not to like the term MUG because it somehow implies that their garment is not a kilt, while more traditional people like that acronym for the same reason. I guess it is a bit loaded...

[TheOfficialBren]

Ironically, Utilikilts do not refer to their products as kilts.

[CMcG]

Ironically, Utilikilts do not refer to their products as kilts.

Except in their brand name, which is a portmanteau of "utility" & "KILT"

[The Wizard of BC]

I really did not intend to sound so negative Colin. It was not anything against you.

The last few posts have pointed out that we do not all agree even on the terms we use.

I have tried, over the years, to find a common way of defining all the different types of kilts and all the different ways they can be worn. But to no avail.

Until we can agree on the terms I doubt we can word any poll that would suit all our members.

For example - The acronym MUG was coined by Steven Viegas to describe his product the Utilikilt. Steven does no like using the term kilt for his product even though those are the last four letters of his company.

Another, I sort of adopted the term "Contemporary" to describe what I do that is different from a Traditional and a Utilikilt. I have a very firm idea of what a Contemporary Kilt is but that is not universally accepted.

Even when we say Traditional we don't all agree what that means. Traditional kilt means different things to different people and Traditional dress is even more widely defined.
For example, One member says that they remember seeing me dressed in TCHD. Sorry, I do not think of how I dress as TCHD at all. Certainly not as Jock or Kyle would define it.



What if we use this thread to try to come up with some definitions that we would agree to use here on X Marks. These would be the forum standards so we would all know what we are talking about.
What we come up with may not be what you would use out in the world, but while here, we would agree to use a single set of terms.
These would be posted in the forum FAQ's for all to see and understand.


How about I start it off.

Traditional Kilt - A Kilt made in the manner, or very similar to, that described in "The Art of Kiltmaking".
1) A traditional kilt would be a full 8 yard kilt even though we all know that the actual amount used would vary. This would separate a traditional kilt from a 5 yard kilt.
2) How a traditional kilt is pleated would not matter. To the Sett, to the stripe, knife, box, kingussie, etc. would all be considered traditional if constructed in the traditional manner.
3) A traditional kilt would have all the internal construction we associate with "The Art of Kiltmaking". If there is a liner but nothing underneath the liner it would not be traditionally made.
4) A traditional kilt would be designed to be worn at Full Rise. Up at the natural waist, or just under the ribs. We could agree that a traditional could be worn lower, but if the design of the kilt was full rise then it would be a traditional kilt. We could use the rise and the length of the Fell to determine this. (If the kilt were made with a rise above the buckles and the bottom of the Fell would hit at the hip line when the buckles are at the natural waist it would be traditionally made.)
5) The fabric the kilt was made from would not matter. We would not separate Tartan from Tweed, 16oz from 13oz as long as it was made in the traditional style. (I'm not sure if a metallic silver "21st Century Kilt" would fit in traditional of if we would have to have a special case for Howie's kilts.)

Would anyone like to add to, or comment on, this idea?

[McElmurry]

CMcG

Overall the poll was informative. I fell in the second group but felt the definition of traditional kilt was a bit broad so I provided additional information. Folks who tend toward a more modern version of what you called traditional could have done the same. If you had divide kilts into three groups, that would have added more combinations to your questions and made the poll quite complicated. Also, the dividing line between traditional and semi-traditional would be controversial. So I wouldn’t beat yourself up too much about the wording of the poll.

Steve

If I were designing a poll I would consider adding the four-yard box pleat kilt constructed from 16 oz. wool to the traditional category do to its historical provenance. However, I wouldn’t object to it being in a different category as long as it didn’t get lumped into a low yardage category with sport/casual kilts constructed from man-made fibers.