POLL: 2013 "Kilt Census"

[Jock Scot]

I don't know Steve, I seem to recall some pictures of you that are distinctly THCD in my view. Whilst I agree the definition of a traditional kilt that you describe above leaves little to discuss. It is what goes with it that is where I think people have trouble with and that is a moving and elusive target. For example in certain circumstances, bare chested and barefoot with a traditional kilt is perfectly THCD on the beach, on the rare occasion the sun comes out in Scotland. This sort of variation from the tweed clad, tattersall shirted, Regimental tied, cromach wielding , brogue wearing "Kyle/Jock type" picture, is I think, difficult to grasp for those not understanding the wide range and subtleties of THCD.

Now I have admittedly little to no(OK none) experience of the other styles of kilts, so I can only give the impressions that I have gathered here and some tartan kilts of more modern construction and yes, materials too, being worn with, for example, a pullover and open necked shirt, with reasonable shoes, hose pulled up and reasonable sporran certainly gives the impression of THCD. So before getting to the MUG definitions there is a huge grey area that we all will have trouble defining when considering what is worn above and below the kilt. In other words it is the overall look that, in my view, defines THCD or not.

[The Wizard of BC]

I agree Jock that the gray areas are what cause us the problems. That is why I suggest that we attempt to agree on some terms.

For example, would you take a shot at defining the acronym TCHD. Not in the sense of the subtle ways it can be expressed but what do the letters mean.

We do not have TCHD in our list of Acronyms.

Then perhaps, once we know what the acronym stands for, we can go further with, perhaps a pictorial, of the ways to dress that would conform to the definition.

[Jock Scot]

I am not being a "cleaver Dick" here Steve, but you say TCHD and I say THCD. Frankly I am not at all sure which is right, but you probably are!

I think it was Colin who coined the term and I have never really remembered what the letters stand for, but T for Traditional works for me.

Pictures? Hummm, we could have thousands and then think of the pages of "yes buts", "what ifs" that will follow! To coin a phrase and adjusting it a tad, but lets try it: "the definition of THCD is in the eye of the beholder". To give yourself as an example, you say that you do not think that you dress in a traditional way. Well OK perhaps not all the time, but in my view from some of the pictures that I have seen of you, then you easily qualify as being traditionally attired in my book.

Regardless of the above, if I can assist in clearing the fog, then of course I will help.

[Old Hippie]

Interesting how all this plays out. Personally, I fall in the "wear modern and traditional in modern and traditional ways" category. A kilt, for me, is on the one hand a garment with strong ties to a performance of cultural identity about which I feel very strongly. On another hand, a kilt is a very useful garment for wear while working on the farm (as long as power machinery is not on the agenda). I also prefer a kilt -- using the word in its broadest possible interpretation -- when in the outdoors any time the temperature is above -5C. I have worn a kilt in a professional setting, generally during our convocations, even though it is covered by my academic robes. I used to wear a kilt more often to school, but one of my "limiting factors" is that I collect between 10 and 30 buckets of organic waste every day. Not only do I not want slops on my best kilt (or any of them, even my $60 Blaklader), but my posture when loading buckets into the back of my truck would expose my colleagues to vistas previously unsuspected.

[CMcG]

...
The last few posts have pointed out that we do not all agree even on the terms we use.

I have tried, over the years, to find a common way of defining all the different types of kilts and all the different ways they can be worn. But to no avail.

Until we can agree on the terms I doubt we can word any poll that would suit all our members.

...


What if we use this thread to try to come up with some definitions that we would agree to use here on X Marks. These would be the forum standards so we would all know what we are talking about.
What we come up with may not be what you would use out in the world, but while here, we would agree to use a single set of terms.
These would be posted in the forum FAQ's for all to see and understand.

If this poll could provoke that kind of useful and interesting discussion, I would consider it very successful

...
For example, One member says that they remember seeing me dressed in TCHD. Sorry, I do not think of how I dress as TCHD at all.

This looks more or less traditional to me... definitely not modern or even particularly contemporary:

...
For example, would you take a shot at defining the acronym THCD. Not in the sense of the subtle ways it can be expressed but what do the letters mean.

THCD = traditional Highland civilian dress

The acronym was created by davidlpope based on comments made by ThistleDown in a thread I started in 2010 called "What is Traditional Highland Dress?"

[llyd]

it gets a little overcomplicated doesn't it? I tend to think of the modern kilts that I make as being modern kilts...but also lump the tartan acrylic and PV kilts into that category, as i make my kilts more or less to a traditional pattern...the exception being straps...but a wool kilt, knife, kingussie, or box pleated, made of 100% wool twill in a tartan (or plaid that isn't too touristy..lol) as being a trad kilt..the key being all wool, and constructed in the traditional manner....utilikilts and whatnot, with the aprons that look like baby bibs..I lump into the MUG category...nothing against them...I just don't care for them personally...but then, I appreciate anything that shed positive light on the kilt..

[The Wizard of BC]

Would everyone agree to agree that we use the Acronym TCHD to mean Traditional Civilian Highland Dress?

[CMcG]

Would everyone agree to agree that we use the Acronym TCHD to mean Traditional Civilian Highland Dress?

Since the acronym was coined, it has been THCD. I'd prefer that we keep it that way, rather than change it to TCHD, unless there is a compelling reason to do so?

[Jock Scot]

Apparently it is THCD, Steve. See Colin's post No:95.

[Paul Henry]

I think that the very real problem here is that there isn't and never can be a perfect definition of THCD, ( lets not change the way it is known here Steve).
There are many ways of wearing a kilt in a traditional style in Scotland and the very idea that it could be codified in an exact way would be met with a certain ammount of amusement certainly in the UK. But is does also raise a point to me that comes to fore now and again on Xmarks that many of the American members want to find a list of rules or requirements in order to be properly dressed in a "Scottish" way when in truth there really isn't a book of regulations.
The picture of Steve with the plaid certainly looks like a traditional way of wearing a kilt, but when he says that he doesn't wear a kilt in a particulary traditional manner I can see where some forum members could be confused, so sorry Steve you are wearing it in what has become known as a traditional way.

The idea that you would be able to define a traditional by how it was made is also fraught with problems, I've repaired any kilts made in Scotland , by some well known makers, which have very little or indeed no internal canvas or stabiliser strips, infact a very large producer of kilts in Scotland uses iron on interfacing over the cut out pleats instead of sewing, and yet to almost everyone they appear to be very traditionally constructed.
There are many ways to make a kilt and to pick one method isn't fair to any other makers, it's simply not going to be an easy thing to do, and we on this forum might have an interest I suspect we might be the only ones!