POLL: 2013 "Kilt Census"

[McElmurry]

How about I start it off.

Traditional Kilt - A Kilt made in the manner, or very similar to, that described in "The Art of Kiltmaking".
1) A traditional kilt would be a full 8 yard kilt even though we all know that the actual amount used would vary. This would separate a traditional kilt from a 5 yard kilt.
2) How a traditional kilt is pleated would not matter. To the Sett, to the stripe, knife, box, kingussie, etc. would all be considered traditional if constructed in the traditional manner.
3) A traditional kilt would have all the internal construction we associate with "The Art of Kiltmaking". If there is a liner but nothing underneath the liner it would not be traditionally made.
4) A traditional kilt would be designed to be worn at Full Rise. Up at the natural waist, or just under the ribs. We could agree that a traditional could be worn lower, but if the design of the kilt was full rise then it would be a traditional kilt. We could use the rise and the length of the Fell to determine this. (If the kilt were made with a rise above the buckles and the bottom of the Fell would hit at the hip line when the buckles are at the natural waist it would be traditionally made.)
5) The fabric the kilt was made from would not matter. We would not separate Tartan from Tweed, 16oz from 13oz as long as it was made in the traditional style. (I'm not sure if a metallic silver "21st Century Kilt" would fit in traditional of if we would have to have a special case for Howie's kilts.)

Would anyone like to add to, or comment on, this idea?

As far as kilts go I think we all know what a tank is. The Scottish Tartans Museum calls tanks Standard Gentleman’s Kilts. The key word here is standard, or what has been the standard for most of the twentieth century. The problem with words like historical or traditional is they carry some nebulous stamp of approval but are open to interpretation (how long ago or who’s tradition). So I move we use Standard Kilt (aka Tank) to denote the kilt specified above.

[Tobus]

Since the acronym was coined, it has been THCD. I'd prefer that we keep it that way, rather than change it to TCHD, unless there is a compelling reason to do so?

***. For several years now it has been THCD, and I'm not sure why it would need to change. By now, it is its own tradition!

As for trying to create forum-specific terminology that everyone uses, didn't we have that argument a year or two ago? I seem to recall a thread where people argued ad nauseam about the meanings of words like "contemporary" and "modern" and "traditional". And I further recall that the end result was to abandon the attempt at an official definition. It was causing more division amongst the members than any good it could have done.

Besides, half the fun of discussing the kilt is revisiting these concepts of traditional and contemporary/modern, right?

[The Wizard of BC]

Sure we can call it whatever we want. But here is my problem. We can't even define it. We use the acronym THCD but no on can agree what it means. That sort of defeats the purpose don't you think?

I've just read through the entire thread referenced in post 95 and I can't find where anyone defined the acronym THCD.

I see in post 17 where MoR makes the distinction of civilian v.s. military.
I see in post 39 where Jock uses "ACTUAL CIVILIAN traditional Scottish Highland wear", and "traditional CIVILIAN highland attire".
In post 125 Rex uses "Traditional Highland (Civilian) Dress" after the thread veered of into ball caps.
In post 133 I find what I think is the first usage of the acronym by davidlpope when he wrote "that Americans are dependent on Highlanders for "informing our sensibilities" concerning Traditional Highland Civilian Dress (THCD)." but he says himself that he cannot define it.
Jock in post 138 then adopts it with "----- thank goodness some one, David I think, had the wit to shorten things down, well done!."
finally in post 170 CMcG posts "As for the nuance, what do you call generally THCD with variations from outside Scotland? Where on Xmarks should it go?"

We seem to throw out this acronym and each person defines it differently. This has led to some of the longest winded and most convoluted threads ever posted here.

If you want it to be THCD, OK, but it sure would be helpful if someone would define it before they use it.

[Paul Henry]

snip...
If you want it to be THCD, OK, but it sure would be helpful if someone would define it before they use it.

I think the point that has been made that as we have been using THCD there would seem at the very least some continuity in retaining it and not changing to your version.
But your point about defining it, was exactly my last post, there isn't a firm definition of how any of us choose to wear a kilt, traditional or not, and there never will be, in exactly the same way that it would be almost impossible to define any other type of outfit. Most of us do not wear the kilt as a military uniform, we don't have anyone above us to reprimand us ( although it seems that it does happen sometimes) for what we wear. The wonderful thing about wearing a kilt is that there are so any ways of wearing it, of course we might follow guides , but there is a lot of freedom in exactly how we do dress , and that to me is one of the great things about wearing a kilt.

[llyd]

I think the short sweet solution is....Bugrit...lose the pants..wear the kilt...got stuff ta do.

[Jock Scot]

Someone, I forget who, when asked to define pornography and after a little thought he came up with words that went something like this; "I am not sure that I can, but I know it when I see it." The same goes for THCD it is impossible to define precisely, which of course in this modern compartmentalised, pigeon holed, labeled world we live in is an anathema. Which deep down, is perhaps part of the fun of kilt wearing.

Steve, I have in minds eye a picture posted here of you wearing a very smart kilt in xmarksthescot tartan, worn at around top of the knee height, a neatly pressed open necked khaki(ish) shirt, tape measure draped around your neck, un-scrunched kilt hose, smartly positioned garter ties, black slip on shoes and most important of all a mug of coffee clasped in one hand. To all intents and purposes the epitome of a contented tailor dressed in THCD style whilst taking a break.

Now because this is xmarks where there is intense interest in kilts and the culture that we have here to pigeon hole the detail (which does make discussion easier if we have clear definitions)and because I know a bit about Steve, I can possibly make a few educated assumptions. The kilt is probably not made to traditional guidelines in some aspects. It may, or may not, be made of wool, it may not be made of 8 yards of cloth, it may not be pleated to traditional expectations, it is probably tailored to fit lower on the waist and it probably has a couple of pockets on the inside of the apron. All pretty non traditional in the kilt making world and to some that makes first rate selling and purchasing points and good for them!

I suggest and I am only guessing, because Steve knows exactly what his kilt is made of and knows precisely how his kilt is made, he genuinely believes he is not wearing the kilt as THCD.

Well of course Steve might not intend to dress in THCD style, but take the picture that he posted here a few posts ago and the picture that I have in my minds eye, then to those that know little of the actual minute details, particularly the behind the scene ones, then THCD he most definitely is! To take this further and to put it on a wider spectrum, I think many here on this website who think that they are wearing the kilt in the contemporary style, might be surprised to find that they fit the broad and unhelpfully imprecise THCD definition perfectly.

[OC Richard]

We use the acronym THCD but no one can agree what it means.

Yes things like that, stylistic things, are often difficult to formulate into a neat set of words.

The most compact definition of tasteful traditional civilian Highland Dress I can think of is "how Prince Charles dresses". Not too bad for four words, though people could perhaps nitpick at some detail or other.

[neloon]

The most compact definition of tasteful traditional civilian Highland Dress I can think of is "how Prince Charles dresses". Not too bad for four words,

Agreed. Just such a pity that nothing will induce his sons to follow suit. Seems to be their mother's influence.
Alan

[pbutts]

The most compact definition of tasteful traditional civilian Highland Dress I can think of is "how Prince Charles dresses".

Exactly....I grew up pawing through old National Geographic magazines and remember several articles on the Highlands written by Archibald MacLeish (or maybe it was a son?) with great old pictures of Highland Gatherings and lairds dressed in tweed and kilts -- that's what I envision as THCD.

Based on the old How to Wear a Kilt books and catalogs, I suppose the two other distinct "Traditional" styles could be labeled Traditional Highland Military Dress (THMD) which should probably include pipe band fashion (or lack thereof ;-) and Traditional Highland Formal Dress, i.e. the Burns Night look. If we're being complete here, is there a distinct fourth "casual" style? i.e. the Irish fisherman's sweater and hiking boots look?

[Jock Scot]

pbutts.

I think pipe band attire does not qualify as THCD as it is more theatrical and military than civilian everyday wear. There are many more THCD styles than days in the month, which can include anything from bare chested and bare footed on the beach upwards to the most formal of formal. When individual interpretation is added then its almost endless, but, BUT there are limits. So yes variations on a theme can only go so far before we dessert THCD and the trick is having the knowledge to make those sorts of judgements. Which makes it so hard for me and others to explain to those who are trying to understand and I have found sometimes pictures can cause absolute confusion rather than helping even with complete explanations attached.