POLL: 2013 "Kilt Census"

[pbutts]

pbutts.

I think pipe band attire does not qualify as THCD as it is more theatrical and military than civilian everyday wear.

That was my thinking, too....include pipe band uniforms in the category Traditional Highland Military Dress (THMD) based on the kinds of accessories frequently (though not always) worn--Glengarry bonnets, shirts with epaulets, various military accessories (plaids, badges, dirks, etc.), horsehair sporrans, brogues (or even spats) -- with the 8yd knife pleat kilt.

[Jock Scot]

That was my thinking, too....include pipe band uniforms in the category Traditional Highland Military Dress (THMD) based on the kinds of accessories frequently (though not always) worn--Glengarry bonnets, shirts with epaulets, various military accessories (plaids, badges, dirks, etc.), horsehair sporrans, brogues (or even spats) -- with the 8yd knife pleat kilt.

I know some may not like pipe band attire excluded in the THCD definition, but its complicated enough without adding more complications to it all. It does simplify things a tad if we can at least separate a few aspects from each other, even if there are a few common points, such a kilts, hose, etc..

[TheOfficialBren]

Snippet...
Steve, I have in minds eye a picture posted here of you wearing a very smart kilt in xmarksthescot tartan, worn at around top of the knee height, a neatly pressed open necked khaki(ish) shirt, tape measure draped around your neck, un-scrunched kilt hose, smartly positioned garter ties, black slip on shoes and most important of all a mug of coffee clasped in one hand. To all intents and purposes the epitome of a contented tailor dressed in THCD style whilst taking a break.

Now because this is xmarks where there is intense interest in kilts and the culture that we have here to pigeon hole the detail (which does make discussion easier if we have clear definitions)and because I know a bit about Steve, I can possibly make a few educated assumptions. The kilt is probably not made to traditional guidelines in some aspects. It may, or may not, be made of wool, it may not be made of 8 yards of cloth, it may not be pleated to traditional expectations, it is probably tailored to fit lower on the waist and it probably has a couple of pockets on the inside of the apron. All pretty non traditional in the kilt making world and to some that makes first rate selling and purchasing points and good for them!

I suggest and I am only guessing, because Steve knows exactly what his kilt is made of and knows precisely how his kilt is made, he genuinely believes he is not wearing the kilt as THCD.

Well of course Steve might not intend to dress in THCD style, but take the picture that he posted here a few posts ago and the picture that I have in my minds eye, then to those that know little of the actual minute details, particularly the behind the scene ones, then THCD he most definitely is! To take this further and to put it on a wider spectrum, I think many here on this website who think that they are wearing the kilt in the contemporary style, might be surprised to find that they fit the broad and unhelpfully imprecise THCD definition perfectly.

***
I recall a VERY smart photo of Steve wearing one of his Freedom Kikts, a tartan model with pockets, at a very high brow black tie event. In the photo, he was standing in a relaxed pose with his hands in his pockets--still looking completely appropriate for the event. I would have to say that although his tartan kilt is contemporary, it is certainly NOT a MUG and is absolutely appropriate for THCD.

[llyd]

Ummm...a pipe band is regimented, no? I think that really nixes the "civilian" definition, as it is a uniform..

[The Wizard of BC]

OK, we have again gone round and round over what is the traditional form of kilted dress. My original suggestions seems to have been overshadowed again.

I still think it would be helpful if we agreed on the terms we use here on X Marks.

What is a "traditional kilt"? Not how can it be worn, but what is the thing itself, and what are the characteristics that would separate it from a MUG.

We have MUG defined in our FAQ's as - A Male Unbifurcated Garment. This term was coined by the Utilikilt Company, of Seattle to describe their specific product. A male, skirt like garment, with little or no connection to the Tradition of the Scottish Kilt.

A few years ago Hank added the first chapter of "The Art of Contemporary Kiltmaking" to our articles. It is titled "Too many styles of kilt to choose from" Perhaps this or something similar would help clear up some of the confusion. Especially for our newer members who often come to us with questions but don't know how to word their questions.

By agreeing that a Contemporary/Modern/Casual kilt is a particular thing, and describing the differences between them, we could avoid any confusion with the very specific garment called a MUG.

[TheOfficialBren]

In my humble and newbie opinion here is my take (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong):

If it is shaped like a traditional kilt then it is. Casual kilts, contemporasy kilts, tanks...woor OR PV tartan and tweed...if they are similar to the kilts work in Scotland and look acceptable with the standard accoutrements then they are traditional.

If it is not intended to resemble the Scottish kilt (made of denim, cotton, leather, hemp, etc, usually wih cargo pockets or alternate inner-pleat fabrics or small aprons or snap-on accessories like the steampunkers wear) then it is a MUG.

It is all about intent and basic image. If the intention is to wear it in a manner resembling Highland dress (regardless of formality) then it is a kilt in the THCD mode. This includes casual shirts and shoes (as often seen at the Games) but still distinctively Scottish accessories (like a sporran, for example).


If it is intended to be worn in a very UNtraditional manner (i.e. Punk/steampunk/fantasy/costume/Axel Rose-style) then it is a MUG.


The definitions are quite clear. The is no confusion. All of the "but, buts" are just people trying to call their MUG something that it is not. Period.

There is nothing wrong with a MUG, although I would not buy one...but they are not kilts. They are man-skirts. End-of-story.

As far as mixing and matching, to each their own. Ern, for example, does this successfully when he opts to wear a MUG in lieu of his traditional kilt...but he is a rare example of it being done successfully.

That is just my tuppence and, granted, I am the new horse in this derby but it just makes sense to me.

[The Wizard of BC]

I'm sorry Bren, but a MUG is only applicable to the Utilikilt. It was coined by Steven Viegas to describe his product only.

We accept the word "kilt" to describe all the others but within that broad term there are many varieties. Most of the members here would accept that an 8 yard, 16oz hand-sewn Tank is very different from an Acrylic Pakistani made Pub Kilt while still being a kilt.

[TheOfficialBren]

Fair enough, Steve, but my position is based upon the intention of the wearer...do you intend to resemble THCD or do you intend to match something else?

Also, I have seen the term MUG used to describe any number of products similar to a Utilikilt. It has become the byword or "kleenex" term in the kilting world to refer to a kilt that doesn't resemble a traditional kilt. Not all MUGS are Utilikilts but all Utilikilts are MUGS.

Pub kilts, if intended to be worn, even in a casual way, in a manner that reflects THCD custom *is* a traditionally-inspired kilt...thus fitting into the criteria laid out VERY CLEARLY by the OP.

Truly, construction and materials alone are not sufficient to define a "traditional kilt" in no uncertain terms, since even the experts are divided...and history has shown us that all of these things are in flux...to stablise or not...4,5,6,7,8, or 9 yards...knife or box or some other type of pleat...wool...which weight...p/v for any number of reasons (including allergies or budget)...straps, 2, 3, 4 (extremely rare but yes, I have seen them)...fringe or no fringe...pleated to sett or stripe...military rise or civilian rise...hem or selvedge...liner or no liner...gold, brass, chrome, pewter or siver buckles...leather colour on straps...tartan straps...ribbon or tie closure...jeans construction or old school kilt construction...see? These are all things that we find with traditional-styled kilts...that doesn't even include so-called MUGS. These are all options that I have extracted from the most respected kilt-makers on XMTS. Every single detail (except four straps...that was a vintage kilt in another thread) that I mentioned here is a point of discussion from a reputable maker...even your site, Steve.

[Paul Henry]

I'm sorry Bren, but a MUG is only applicable to the Utilikilt. It was coined by Steven Viegas to describe his product only.

We accept the word "kilt" to describe all the others but within that broad term there are many varieties. Most of the members here would accept that an 8 yard, 16oz hand-sewn Tank is very different from an Acrylic Pakistani made Pub Kilt while still being a kilt.

Sorry Steve you are mistaken, while once a upon a time MUG might only have been applied to a Utilikilt, these days it covers much more ground and would and could be applied to a whole range of "skirt" like garments, ranging from sarongs to Männerrock .

[TheOfficialBren]

Sorry Steve you are mistaken, while once a upon a time MUG might only have been applied to a Utilikilt, these days it covers much more ground and would and could be applied to a whole range of "skirt" like garments, ranging from sarongs to Männerrock [/FONT][/SIZE].

...and my point is proven, with ALL DO RESPECT.