POLL: 2013 "Kilt Census"

[The Wizard of BC]

OK, fine. I'm tired of trying to explain the difference between how a garment is made from how it is worn.

If you want to use terms you can't even define or use someone else's term to describe a lot of different things, fine.

[TheOfficialBren]

But the terms are defined; they are neatly defined.

Traditional kilts-resembling kilts in Scottish dress.
MUG- resembling kilts NOT of the Scottish variety.

[Paul Henry]

OK, fine. I'm tired of trying to explain the difference between how a garment is made from how it is worn.

If you want to use terms you can't even define or use someone else's term to describe a lot of different things, fine.

I'm afraid I don't really understand what you are trying to say, you know I'm a kiltmaker and I make hand sewn traditional kilts with 8 yards, high rise with all the internal sewing, I also make 5 yard machine sewn more contemporary style, but also with a high rise,so I do understand exactly how a kilt is made. I make kilts from tartan and tweed and denim, the way they look is traditional regardless of the fabric,partlyI imaginebeacuseI likethe traditional look, I'm not so keen on cargo pockets and the like, but that is my choice not to make those types.
I come back to my earlier points,that it is almost impossible to define a kilt and that it is almost a little foolish to try to narrow it down so precisely.

[llyd]

It is truly unfortunate that we cannot harness the energy of splitting hairs. the heat bill would fall like a paralyzed falcon...

[TheOfficialBren]

It is truly unfortunate that we cannot harness the energy of splitting hairs. the heat bill would fall like a paralyzed falcon...

Word! Our forum by itself would end the energy crisis!



In spite of our occasional brow-beating and sabre-rattling I LOVE THIS PLACE!!! it has so much knowledge, character, and is a rare find...a community, even if it's in the virtual world, people seem to be people here rather than anomalous screen-names.

[OC Richard]

I think pipe band attire does not qualify as THCD as it is more theatrical and military than civilian everyday wear.

That's my world- the Competition Pipe Band world- and the fads/trends/styles do indeed follow their own path, enough so that at a Games you can usually identify the Pipe Band people from the other kilt-wearers.

However, there's no particular single article of dress that's unique to Pipe Bands... everything occurs in ordinary TCDH. It's about which items are selected and how they are combined that marks the Pipe Band person.

Nowadays it's black Glengarry, black waistcoat with square silver buttons, black hunting sporran with chrome top, ornate sporran chain strap, black hose, black ghillies. Last time I checked every single band competing in Grade One at The Worlds was so dressed (with occasional slight deviations).

Also bands often wear shortsleeved shirts with their waistcoats, dark shirts, and kilts pleated to the line or block. A disproportionate number of bands wear red tartans in weathered/reproduction colours, and certain tartans such as MacLean of Duart are common.

Individually these things aren't distinctive, but put them all together and you get Pipe Band Dress.

Here's a typical example



I feel duty-bound to point out that not a single element of modern civilian competition Pipe Band Dress has its origins in the Army. (The Glengarry, for example, shows up in civilian Highland Dress at least 20 years before it makes its appearance in the military.) In fact, several pipe bands of current Scottish Highland battalions maintain a separate civilian dress which they wear when competing at Highland Games, consisting of non-military items such as ghillies, civilian hose, civilian sporrans, waistcoats, and shirts. When thus dressed the only regimental items they wear are their kilts and Glengarries.

[tundramanq]

If you drop the term Traditional and use Historic, I think the "defining" is easier. Fashions and designs come and go. The kilt has always been evolving as new ideas and materials come about. This won't change.
For historic reinactments, you want that eras design. It's costuming for an occasion and get it right! For daily wear you want a good looking, yet easy care garment. I normally do not want to spend my days worrying about spilling my coffee my aprons. The newer kilt fabrics don't need the underpinnings that wool did and thus are less expensive and simpler to make. The context of use rules the design that you use.

[Java]

In spite of our occasional brow-beating and sabre-rattling I LOVE THIS PLACE!!! it has so much knowledge, character, and is a rare find...a community, even if it's in the virtual world, people seem to be people here rather than anomalous screen-names.

Sheesh, just when I'm trying to get upset, you go and say something like that. That is exactly why (according to the poll) about a third of the folks here are still here. Even though I'm frequently told that half of my kilts, by virtue of the material they are made from, are not kilts at all but rather are women's clothing, I'm still here. I too, love this place.

THCD - Like Jock (I think it was Jock) said, I can't define it, but I know it when I see it. Can you imagine 200 years from now, a bunch of guys argueing over the proper traditional way to wear blue jeans? OK, 200 years from now no one will care about blue jeans, but the point is, they are not a costume. There is not just one proper way to wear them. That is one reason why the traditional areas of the forum are always busier. People wanting to know what is in the acceptable range of ways to wear one properly.

Modern kilts - Villegas coined the term "MUG" and went to great lengths to explain that his design owed nothing to Scottish kilts. His original one didn't even wrap around, you had to step into it. But look at it - he obviously based it on a kilt. And even he knew it had to have "kilt" in the name to be accepted as a man's garment. Part of the problem with them is they appeal to people with vastly different attitudes. Some embrace the whole MUG thing wanting to be different. Some just want a kilt they can wear as a kilt, in situations where one wouldn't want to risk a nicer kilt.

I'm watching the poll with interest. Because we even though we can't even agree on our terms, so it won't be perfect, I am curious!

[ThistleDown]

The problem is not the definitions for Historical and Traditional, but with the necessary inclusion of the latter in the third division -- Contemporary.

'Historical' is exclusive to the past (with recognised and unrecognised eras) and 'Contemporary' to the current. 'Traditional' is an ever-evolving lifeform that leads from the Historical -- which it has ceased to be -- to the Contemporary -- which it has become.

Correctly, the third division should be named 'Non-Traditional'; ie., Highland Civilian Dress worn in a different manner than it is traditionally. Not how it is made, but how it appears. If it looks like a bird it is a bird even if we want to call it a duck, an ostrich or a penguin.

THMD (Traditional Highland Military Dress) is based on THCD because although it includes elements of the latter it is most accurately defined by its limitations/restrictions. Highland Pipe Band Dress (HPBD) is a sub-division of THMD in that it, too, is uniform. Neither allows for personal preference and/or style. Of Highland dress. Highland dress.

[Wolfhound Jack]

This was a curious thread for me, I went with "Only Trad in trad + contemporary ways" because t-shirt was included in the description. I'd have to say waist down to feet - traditional - by virtue of the qualification that a USAK "Casual" counts as Trad due to its intent... but waist up, I'll go with whatever strikes my fancy for the event... tonight was going to listen to our pipe major perform at a local pub so I was in a T-léine but normally it's a button up shirt + kilt jacket (vest or no, depending)... though I wonder how a button up shirt with epaulettes is classed as that's my preferred actually.