Kilts and Pipes Co-opted by Irish in America

[John_Carrick]

Yes. Neither the great kilt or the little kilt existed at the time that Saint Patrick (that is, the Two Patricks...) lived.

Neither did Scotland or England. Patrick was a Briton (Brythonic). However, it is possible he may have been born in what is now Scotland.

John

[Jock Scot]

Evolution my dear chaps. Evolution. In another, oooh I don't know, but lets say in another thousand years or so you will all be thinking as, err, um, well, Americans, or even, dare I say it, North Americans. You fellows over there are only at the start of all this with all those assorted heritages that abound there, in having the sharp edges of your recent and present cultures being rounded, moulded and yes, eroded, by the present day inhabitants and future ones.You never know, you may eventually think a tad like us and wonder what all the fuss is about, in a day to day context. Let us hope that you all manage the trip with rather less tears and blood spilt than the past residents of Scotland managed. One thing is for certain sure though, evolution in a National cultural sense, is a continuing process.

[dutchy kilted]

Wow! Obviously this is a touchy subject. I think here in America the Scottish and Irish traditions have become mixed as "Celtic" (leaving out all those Celts on the Continent, of course.) However, in many places around the world, "American"" is associated with cowboy hats and boots, so misinformation can go both ways.

One of the joys of wearing a kilt is that people will feel free to come up and ask "why are you wearing a kilt on St Paddy's Day," which gives all of us an opening to try to educate the hoi polloi in a fun, non-threatening way. Who knows, it might even stick!

[Geoff Withnell]

One of the joys of wearing a kilt is that people will feel free to come up and ask "why are you wearing a kilt on St Paddy's Day," which gives all of us an opening to try to educate the hoi polloi in a fun, non-threatening way. Who knows, it might even stick!

The obvious answer is "If I take it off, they will arrest me!"

[Dale-of-Cedars]

As a descendant of Scots (Alberta) and Irish (Quebec) immigrants, I'm decidedly mixed in my opinion...

[flairball]

The problem isn't that the kilt, and pipes have been co-opted by the Irish, but the fact that, as the mainstream goes anyway, if you take them away on St Pattys day all you have left to celebrate the Irish culture is drinking and fighting. Of course drinking and fighting can be great fun, but they hardly define the Irish. The kilts and pipes on display have led a lot of people to actually believe they are Irish. I'd prefer to see things that are decidedly more Irish on display (might actually get me out to enjoy the celebration). Of course then we'd all complain that we don't see enough kilts and pipes anymore.

And couldn't the Irish have taken along the Haggis, too?

[RockyR]

The problem isn't that the kilt, and pipes have been co-opted by the Irish, but the fact that, as the mainstream goes anyway, if you take them away on St Pattys day all you have left to celebrate the Irish culture is drinking and fighting.

I disagree... you'd still have Cable Knit Sweaters!

[creagdhubh]

Evolution my dear chaps. Evolution. In another, oooh I don't know, but lets say in another thousand years or so you will all be thinking as, err, um, well, Americans, or even, dare I say it, North Americans. You fellows over there are only at the start of all this with all those assorted heritages that abound there, in having the sharp edges of your recent and present cultures being rounded, moulded and yes, eroded, by the present day inhabitants and future ones.You never know, you may eventually think a tad like us and wonder what all the fuss is about, in a day to day context. Let us hope that you all manage the trip with rather less tears and blood spilt than the past residents of Scotland managed. One thing is for certain sure though, evolution in a National cultural sense, is a continuing process.

Well said, Jock.

[O'Callaghan]

The Irish did co-opt the kilt from the Scots, but over a hundred years ago, in Ireland. A few centuries earlier, the Scots fashionned the great kilt by belting their brats (traditional Irish cloaks) around their waists. It is just that there are now far more Irish Americans now wearing the kilt than Irish in Ireland.

As for the pipes, the Scots contribution was the third drone. Pipes with drones originated in the middle east, and gathered extra drones along the way, LOL! Anyone with the slightest command of geography will be able to understand why they reached France and even England before they got to either Scotland or Ireland.

To the extent that the Irish co-opt Scottish pipes, it is only by using the most recent form with the third drone, which is simply what's most readily available. Some people have tried to reconstruct older two drone types by copying the Scots variety and removing a drone, whereas they might have done better to copy the French cornemuse. The point is though, you can get such things, but who wants to pay more to get one less drone?

Americans associate pipes (and kilts) more with the Irish than the Scots because of pipe bands attached to fire departments and police forces staffed by Irish Americans. This may be slightly misleading as far as the kilts are concerned, but not the pipes. However, I do groan inwardly when they play an entirely Scots repertoire on St. Patrick's Day. Can they not learn Napper Tandy and The Dawning Of The Day at least?

It is true that both kilts and pipes are associated far more with Scotland than with Ireland in the old world, but if you think that Irish Americans just decided one day to co-opt either one, then it is you who don't know all the facts.

[MNlad]

I disagree... you'd still have Cable Knit Sweaters!

And Donegal tweeds.

I wore both last weekend. And even though I wore them with a kilt, I felt I was more appropriately attired for the event than all the folks in green plastic derbies and leprechaun t-shirts.

However, we were all out and about to have a good time, enjoy the music (whether Irish or Scottish), appreciate the footwork of the dancers, and share a pint or two. As an American mutt, I'm not above crossing ethnic lines to enjoy a great day.