New Tank!! Dewar tartan.

[Shedlock2000]

I am going to be picky on one thing: the jacket is not a "patrol jacket". Patrols were navy blue (almost black) with no lapels. They button right up to the collar and then had a standup type collar. What you are wearing is the green standard issue dress jacket which has been cut-away to wear with a kilt.

Now you come to mention it, I think I have seen the type of jacket you describe. This jacket does seem to be much heavier than most normal jackets though. There is a definite weight to it that is not the same as the others the ex-mil supplier had in stock. This one feels much more like an outdoor jacket - and as I mentioned, kept me warm down to -15 last night. I wonder if there are more tan one 'weight' of this sort of jacket, and whether they would have different names....

Where might one find a patrol jacket of the type you describe, do you think?

[Shedlock2000]

Very sharp! Congrats. It is a military box pleat kilt. Matt doesn't like that term, but it is what it is, and quite distinct from other box-pleat kilts. Military box-pleat kilts are associated with regimental tartans and kilts.

This sett looks like it is based on a Blackwatch (but then so many are, I think) so maybe it is fitting that it should have this sort of pleating - box, or mil-box (so as not to offend both of you!).

[M. A. C. Newsome]

Very sharp! Congrats. It is a military box pleat kilt. Matt doesn't like that term, but it is what it is, and quite distinct from other box-pleat kilts. Military box-pleat kilts are associated with regimental tartans and kilts.

It's not that I don't like the term per se, I just think it is rather limiting and not all that accurate. Take this kilt in question. It is not a military kilt. It is not made in a regimental tartan, and is not part of a military uniform. So why call it a "military box pleat?" Because some regimental kilts are pleated this way? True enough. But plenty of regimental kilts are knife pleated, as well. So why not call all knife pleated kilts "military knife pleats?" See what I am getting at?

If I were to describe the kilt technically, I would say this is an eight yard (assuming it is) kilt made in the Dewar tartan, box pleated to the stripe. Simple enough.

[Paul Henry]

Whatever Matt choose to call it, most of us do call it a MBP because calling it a box pleated 8 yard kilt hardly does it justice: it's a very nice kilt, at an a excellent price, so you have done really well, it looks very smart, enjoy wearing it.

[David Thorpe]

Deleted by poster.

[Glen]

Where might one find a patrol jacket of the type you describe, do you think?

http://www.glengarryhats.com/cutaway_navy.php

You may find patrol jackets on eBay that fit, and have them cut for the kilt...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/British-Cana...item3a7f608975

[jhockin]

if you do a search of this forum (search: "military box pleats") you'll find a wealth of info

[M. A. C. Newsome]

I wrote:

If I were to describe the kilt technically, I would say this is an eight yard (assuming it is) kilt made in the Dewar tartan, box pleated to the stripe.

Whatever, Matt. The rest of the world knows what a military box pleated kilt looks like, regardless of the tartan.

Was there anything wrong or ambiguous about my description? And who is this "rest of the world?" I think we forget sometimes that the kilt wearing world does not begin and end with X Marks the Scot.

Take for example the book All About Your Kilt that was written by Bob Martin and published in 2001. Bob knows more about the history and construction of the kilt than just about anyone living, I would venture. He is to kilt making what Jamie Scarlett was to tartan. He had a kilt making career spanning over 30 years, and a special expertise in regimental military uniforms. His short book deals with kilts both from an historic and modern perspective. And he uses three terms to describe pleating throughout his book: box pleats, side (or knife) pleats, and piped (or barrel) pleats.

When he is talking about the different pleating styles (pg 39-40) under the heading of box pleats he has photos which are labelled "original form" (showing a four yard box pleated kilt), "later form" (showing one made with a bit more yardage, and more overlap of the pleats), and "current regimental form" (showing a modern regimental kilt).

Throughout the rest of the book he documents many historic and interesting kilts held in public and private collections in Scotland. When describing these kilts, he uses three and only three abbreviations for pleating styles, K for knife pleats, B for box pleats, and P for piped pleats.

Not once will you find the term "military box pleat" in his book, and I've never heard him use that term.

Until I came on this forum in 2004, very few on here had heard of a box pleated kilt. I had learned to make the more historic style four yard box pleated kilts and was helping to reintroduce this older style. Bob Martin had actually revived this style back in the 1980s, perhaps the first modern kilt maker to do so, but he really only advertised by word of mouth, and in the days before the internet he was unable to find a global audience. So even though he gets the credit for reviving the four yard box pleated kilt of the early 19th century, I was the one who really helped spread recognition of the style to the global stage through my work at the Scottish Tartans Museum and this forum.

It's been so successful that now when people read "box pleated kilt" on this forum, they automatically think of the historic four yard variety. But it was not always so. I can tell you from experience that if you went to any kilt maker in Scotland at any time prior and asked about a box pleated kilt, they would assume you meant the modern regimental style. They would never have imagined you might have meant the historic four yard style -- it wasn't even on the radar. They would not have called it a "military box pleated kilt." They would have just called it a box pleated kilt - full stop.

I suspect that if one were to go to a kilt maker or a kilt aficionado who does not participate in this forum, they would still simply use "box pleated kilt" to describe the modern version.

In truth it is a testimony to just how much more common the old style four yard box pleated kilt has become in recent years that we feel the need to so distinguish it from its modern cousin. So in that respect the term "military box pleat" does have a purpose. I just wish to be more precise. If we call any eight yard box pleated kilt a military box pleat, and any four yard box pleated kilt a traditional box pleat, or historic box pleat, then what do we call a box pleated kilt made from six yards of cloth? Or five? Or seven? The most precise thing to do is to simply to identify the pleat style (knife or box) and the amount of cloth used (anywhere from 4 to 8) and there is no room for confusion. (That's just how Bob Martin documents the kilts in his reference).

I think people get confused in thinking that "military box pleat" is somehow distinct from "box pleat." And so folks like the OP are told "no, that's not a box pleated kilt, that's a military box pleat," when in truth both are correct.

As an aside, I took a look at the modern day Royal Regiment of Scotland's dress regulations to see how they identified the pleating style of their kilts, and was surprised to find that they did not mention it at all! Aside from what tartan the kilt should be made in, and how the center line of the sett should line up with the buttons of the shirt*, they make no mention at all of the pleating style, amount of yardage in the kilt, etc. Just goes to show you how unimportant many of these details are to most people - even though we may deem them essential kilt info!

*And as an even further aside, the uniform regs even get that wrong. What they show pictured are the kilts being worn with the black stripe on the green background centered on the apron, which visually looks balanced. But in fact this is not the center line of the sett. Both pivots of the Black Watch tartan are on the blue portions of the sett.

[creagdhubh]

Congrats, mate!

[David Thorpe]

deleted by poster