Question for Americans please (re Scottish-American regiments??)

[EagleJCS]

It's not really something we need to get into on this forum (it'll break a couple of rules), but there was a lot of anti-immigrant sentiment in the U.S. in the mid-1800's, and immigrants were therefore under a great deal of pressure to conform to societal norms of the time. So much so that they suppressed their accents, anglicised their names, stopped following traditions from 'the old country' and even discouraged their children from asking too many questions about where their family originated. (That makes it difficult for the family historians and genealogists sometimes.)

In the case of many of the Scottish and Scots-Irish immigrants of the early US (before the anti-immigrant days), most were probably too busy just scraping out a living on the frontier (modern West Virginia, western Pennsylvania, Eastern Kentucky and Tennessee, northwest Georgia) to be bothered keeping up with 'old customs'. ("We can't get that little nick-nack to do that old custom, so we'll just stop doing it.")

(Again, some broad generalizations. There's too much history and background - not to mention some hot-button topics - to cover the subject adequately here.)

[MacCathmhaoil]

In Canada the Scot's were the first whites to settle some areas, due mainly to the interests of the Hudson's Bay Company. Many , if not most, of the factors were Highland Scot's hired because of their work ethic and their seeming inability to complain when posted to the middle of no where, under extremely inhospitable conditions. They were also encourage to inter-marry with the First Nations inhabitants, this helped to strengthen trade ties and maintain peaceful relations with the local populations. Didn't quite happen the same way in the U.S. because the H.B.C.'s financial supposedly interests ended at the border. I have a Great-grandmother, McGiffin, who was half Scot and half Ojibway-Cree.

[Nathan]

The greater cultural impact of the Scots in the United States can be found in other areas of life outside of the military. If you want to see the legacy of the Scottish American, start with commerce. Many Scottish Americans were active in trading and industry of all types.

It's true that many Highland Gaels were Loyalists but there were Gaelic speakers on both sides of the American War of Independence. Many Scottish-American loyalists came to Canada but not before leaving their mark.

The biggest impact of Scottish Americans was held in the Carolinas and Virginias and Appalachia where they were active in many industries, especially tobacco and coal mining.

Their musical legacy is demonstrable although it was usually covered up due to the need to create a uniquely American culture to unite the country.

If you listen to Appalachian fiddle tunes, a lot of them are Scottish reels with the names changed. The names were changed to remove reference to the Nobles after whom many of the tunes were named. For example, "Lord MacDonald's Reel" is called "Leather Britches" in Appalachian music.

The Gaelic Psalm singing style common to the Presbyterian Church in Lewis found its way into African American culture through the practice of "Lining out" in which strikingly similar call and answer melodies are sung to the same Psalms with English rather than Gaelic lyrics. Lining out has been considered an ancestor to Afro-American Gospel music.

You can hear a lot of Scottish influence in the music of the Carolina Chocolate drops and a lot of early American music. Bluegrass also has roots in the music of Scotland.

The American folk music tradition also goes back to Scotland. In fact, if you listen to a recent musical project called Cowboy Celtic, David Wilkie demonstrates just how many early American cowboy tunes are simply Scottish melodies with new lyrics.

The influence of the Scottish Free Masons, and Scottish Church Fathers and Scottish Academics on American life is also well documented.

In fact, the entire American political ethos is based in the writings of the "British Empiricists" who were products of the Scottish Enlightenment. There would be no Declaration of Independence and no Bill of Rights if it were not for the writing of Adam Smith, David Hume and John Locke. In fact, according to Fry's, "How the Scots Made America," nineteen of the fifty-six delegates who signed the Declaration of Independence came from Scotland, Ulster or, like the Scottish-tutored Thomas Jefferson, had Scottish Ancestors.

Why is this not stressed? I'm not an American (well not a resident of the USA anyway) but I think it's due to that country's revolutionary history that resulted in a melting pot philosophy. "America" was more than the sum of its constituent parts and people were encouraged to embrace American identity rather than a hyphenated American identity.

In Canada, the experience was far different. For much of its history it was a colonial extension of Britain. As such, Scottish Canadians held their ties to Scotland closely and took great pride in those ties. They were not discouraged from celebrating their Scottish identity as it was perfectly compatible with their Canadian identity. Most of Canada's early leaders were Scots. So while they made a melting pot, we went for a Multicultural Mosaic which keeps the various ethic communities and their accomplishments somewhat more distinct from one another.

As a result of these broader cultural pressures, where Scottish traditions blended with other influences and morphed into new styles and creations South of the border, in Canada, Scottish music stayed very purely Scottish and even among the Metis, who incorporated French and Aboriginal influences in their music, the Scottish style is still very recognizable and I dare say, dominant.


Just a few of my thoughts as a music nerd and political history buff...

[Deirachel]

Actually there is a Scottish influence and tradition in most branches of the US Military . There is nothing like the Canadian Black Watch Regiment as we are not part of the Commonwealth of Great Britain .

However , most branches of the US Military ( perhaps all ) have their own tartan and have their own pipe band . Also , most US Military Academies have their own tartan and pipe band .

The Scottish influence and traditions are not lost regarding the US Military , you just won't see a regiment called The US Black Watch Regiment or anything similar .

Cheers , Mike

This is not entirely accurate. While there are number of tartans representing the US Military, the DoD has not officially recognized any tartans for any of it's component departments. The US Army and US Navy tartans were both designed by Strathmore Woolens (Mackie was an employee for the Navy). The Leatherneck was designed by two Marines no longer subject to revielle, Bob Hall and RH Macleod. The USMC Dress Blue by our own Steve Ashton. (I don't know where the US Air Force came from.)

Other than the tartans used by the Pipe Bands of the various academies (which means the tartan represents the academy in question only), the only branch of the US Armed Forces which I am aware of having an authorized tartan is the US Coast Guard. It is limited in use as part of the uniform to the USCGR Pipe Band, but the tartan was fully authorized by the Commandant in 2002.

I definitely support any Vet wearing any one of these tartans to show his/her service; I would recommend they don't do it "on the clock", though.

[TheOfficialBren]

The greater cultural impact of the Scots in the United States can be found in other areas of life outside of the military. If you want to see the legacy of the Scottish American, start with commerce. Many Scottish Americans were active in trading and industry of all types.

It's true that many Highland Gaels were Loyalists but there were Gaelic speakers on both sides of the American War of Independence. Many Scottish-American loyalists came to Canada but not before leaving their mark.

The biggest impact of Scottish Americans was held in the Carolinas and Virginias and Appalachia where they were active in many industries, especially tobacco and coal mining.

Their musical legacy is demonstrable although it was usually covered up due to the need to create a uniquely American culture to unite the country.

If you listen to Appalachian fiddle tunes, a lot of them are Scottish reels with the names changed. The names were changed to remove reference to the Nobles after whom many of the tunes were named. For example, "Lord MacDonald's Reel" is called "Leather Britches" in Appalachian music.

The Gaelic Psalm singing style common to the Presbyterian Church in Lewis found its way into African American culture through the practice of "Lining out" in which strikingly similar call and answer melodies are sung to the same Psalms with English rather than Gaelic lyrics. Lining out has been considered an ancestor to Afro-American Gospel music.

You can hear a lot of Scottish influence in the music of the Carolina Chocolate drops and a lot of early American music. Bluegrass also has roots in the music of Scotland.

The American folk music tradition also goes back to Scotland. In fact, if you listen to a recent musical project called Cowboy Celtic, David Wilkie demonstrates just how many early American cowboy tunes are simply Scottish melodies with new lyrics.

The influence of the Scottish Free Masons, and Scottish Church Fathers and Scottish Academics on American life is also well documented.

In fact, the entire American political ethos is based in the writings of the "British Empiricists" who were products of the Scottish Enlightenment. There would be no Declaration of Independence and no Bill of Rights if it were not for the writing of Adam Smith, David Hume and John Locke. In fact, according to Fry's, "How the Scots Made America," nineteen of the fifty-six delegates who signed the Declaration of Independence came from Scotland, Ulster or, like the Scottish-tutored Thomas Jefferson, had Scottish Ancestors.

Why is this not stressed? I'm not an American (well not a resident of the USA anyway) but I think it's due to that country's revolutionary history that resulted in a melting pot philosophy. "America" was more than the sum of its constituent parts and people were encouraged to embrace American identity rather than a hyphenated American identity.

In Canada, the experience was far different. For much of its history it was a colonial extension of Britain. As such, Scottish Canadians held their ties to Scotland closely and took great pride in those ties. They were not discouraged from celebrating their Scottish identity as it was perfectly compatible with their Canadian identity. Most of Canada's early leaders were Scots. So while they made a melting pot, we went for a Multicultural Mosaic which keeps the various ethic communities and their accomplishments somewhat more distinct from one another.

As a result of these broader cultural pressures, where Scottish traditions blended with other influences and morphed into new styles and creations South of the border, in Canada, Scottish music stayed very purely Scottish and even among the Metis, who incorporated French and Aboriginal influences in their music, the Scottish style is still very recognizable and I dare say, dominant.


Just a few of my thoughts as a music nerd and political history buff...

One BIG KYLEISM, Nathan. You nailed it right on the head, sir.

[Silk]

Really interesting stuff to ponder.... Again, some that I knew and some that I did not. I know more about the contribution of Scots in Canada of course but suspected that it was similar in the States. I see a lot of similarities regarding the Scots' contribution to trade/business, fiddle music/bluegrass, and politics too in both countries. The one area I couldn't find much to read about was the influence on the military traditions and thus this thread. ;)

By the way, it was mentioned before in this thread that there seemed to be a bit of a mishmash in the U.S. between Scottish and Irish and I'm wondering if the information I found on a page today about Ulster Scottish emigration to the U.S. might account for some of that. I think I will post it over in the genealogy forum for Americans who might want to read up on that subject as I think it's a great genealogical resource myself when looking at family history.

Silk

EDIT: I posted it as a new thread in the History and Heritage forum after seeing the genealogy section is only about searches.

[Hopper250]

In fact, the entire American political ethos is based in the writings of the "British Empiricists" who were products of the Scottish Enlightenment. There would be no Declaration of Independence and no Bill of Rights if it were not for the writing of Adam Smith, David Hume and John Locke. In fact, according to Fry's, "How the Scots Made America," nineteen of the fifty-six delegates who signed the Declaration of Independence came from Scotland, Ulster or, like the Scottish-tutored Thomas Jefferson, had Scottish Ancestors.

Why is this not stressed? I'm not an American (well not a resident of the USA anyway) but I think it's due to that country's revolutionary history that resulted in a melting pot philosophy. "America" was more than the sum of its constituent parts and people were encouraged to embrace American identity rather than a hyphenated American identity.

In the US there always has been (and it is still quite strong) a anti-British legacy. The anti British feelings grew durring the War of 1812 ( Anglo-American War of 1812 to 1815 for those who study World History). We always look to the French influences of our Founding Fathers and what France did for the US. In primary school educations (elementary, middle, and high school, ages 6-18) the influence of England and Scotland on American thought is mostly ignored (this is slowly changing but it takes a while and not every state or even school district talks about it). In college though we learn these things even in the freshman level survey courses. So our historians know it, most history teachers know it, but they may not be able to teach it to the children.

(I only offer this as an explanation of what it is like and my experiences in both the teaching and history fields, I am not offering debate and am trying to keep opinion out).

[Silk]

In the US there always has been (and it is still quite strong) a anti-British legacy. The anti British feelings grew durring the War of 1812 ( Anglo-American War of 1812 to 1815 for those who study World History). We always look to the French influences of our Founding Fathers and what France did for the US. In primary school educations (elementary, middle, and high school, ages 6-18) the influence of England and Scotland on American thought is mostly ignored

I have found this as well in my discussions with American friends... not so much the discussion of France (I rarely have ever heard my American friends mention that in discussing American history) but more the desire to ignore/downplay any contribution whatsoever from the nation's British heritage. And because I don't want to get yelled at, I will stop there as I'm not seeking to offend anyone or cause a problem, just confirming that I have experienced this myself.

[TheOfficialBren]

In all honestly, though, the Anti-British sentiment is mostly upheld by people who are ignorant of the history and development of the nation.

Our legal tradition, for example, stems directly from the Ango-Saxon compensatory system and the Angevin Common Law system.

I would argue that Henry II was nearly as important to America as George Washington by virtue of setting up a legal and judicial system that is a cornerstone upon which the American institution is built. The Magna Carta documents were of equal importance, too, as was the Declaration of Arbroath. Certainly American roots begin in Medieval England and Scotland up until the early modern era.

Scots law may have had some influence, too. The Scottish influence is very evident in the Free Market mentality (from the Royal Charters granted by King James I & VI up to Andrew Carnegie) and the Enlightenment.

All in all, though, the terms 'British' and 'English' are used erroneously interchangeably here where I live-to such a degree that it is the absolute norm and to point out anything otherwise is viewed as odd and quickly goes challenged. I actually had to correct every history teacher that I had from Middle School to High School. There is a general lack of caring when it comes to remedial historical studies being thoroughly and accurately. Scotland is rarely mentioned (Scots are generally lumped in with the English) and Wales was never once mentioned in any History class that I ever took as a boy. Ireland was only mentioned because of the famine.

Yes, the Scots-Irish, while we know them to be a distinct people, are doubtless a reason for some of the confusion. Many Americans genuinely believe that kilts were an Irish thing and that Scotland and Ireland are somehow interchangeable. They know about St Patrick and William Wallace (well...the mythology of both of them). That's about it. Hand on the Good Book, no lie.

You can't make this stuff up, folks.

[Geoff Withnell]

While the Leatherneck tartan may not be official, I have it on good authority (a friend who was stationed there) that on at least one occasion the formal evening Retreat ceremony at USMC Hqtrs at 8th and I in DC has included a piper in Dress Blue blouse and Leatherneck kilt. If it's good enough for 8tgh & I, it's good enough for me!