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29th August 13, 08:43 AM
#71
That is a good chance. But it is an all other things being equal argument. They never are.
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29th August 13, 07:42 PM
#72
Originally Posted by BBNC
I don't get the whole flip-flop thing; flip flops are dangerous outside on pavement, riding bicycles, motorcycles, or horses.
I agree, I only keep a pair handy for a quick run to the recycle or trash container outside. I would never wear in public or during an activity such as cycling.
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29th August 13, 08:50 PM
#73
Originally Posted by Carlo
I wonder if dress sense has something to do with school uniforms, and /or is it a "class" thing?
Since my dad never even owned a suit, suits were just for bankers..., at least back when I was younger.
Things that might come naturally to some are still in my "to learn" box.
Well, certainly in my case it has a lot to do with aversion to school uniform! I had to wear white (or pale blue depending on which school it was) shirts, a tie, grey trousers and black shoes, and in primary school (i.e. before age 11) the trousers had to be shorts. With the exception of ties, I avoid all of the above completely, i.e. no white shirts (and rarely pale blue ones), no grey trousers, no black shoes (unless I am wearing a dinner suit [tux in 'Merican] or they are motorcycle boots) and no shorts (unless I am on a beach or about to enter or leave a beach).
I don't have to wear a tie at work anymore, as the dress codes have become more relaxed, and only wear one if I am dressed for a formal or semi-formal occasion, but I still have to wear smart trousers (not grey!) and a collared shirt (never white and seldom pale blue). Actually, even when the dress code was suit and tie I never wore white shirts or black shoes, rather I wore green or red shirts and brown shoes, and never wore a plain suit, choosing either a pinstripe or one with coloured flecks. I think one has to work for IBM to face a white shirt requirement, and nowadays probably not even there. Perhaps you still have to dress like that if you work for the US Secret Service (what a secret when their clothes resemble a uniform)! Some people do wear white shirts and black shoes to the office out of some sense that it may be the done thing, but I have never encountered an employer to whom it mattered.
Mind you, I have waist length hair. I generally have the longest hair in the office, and that usually includes the women. I also have a short beard, and I do believe that in the times the passing of which the young fogies here lament having a beard would get you fired. Nevertheless, I am gainfully employed in a law firm.
When I am not working and not at any formal event I usually wear a T-shirt. They go quite well with kilts, you know. And if not wearing a kilt, then jeans. I do try to avoid leaving the house in anything with holes or stains, or anything not freshly laundered, but nothing I own is ever pressed (shock, horror!). But then of course, rather than being a young fogey with a tweed addiction I am more of an old fart, LOL!
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30th August 13, 12:01 AM
#74
Time moves on .... I am now in my mid 60's and I remember my mother would never dream of going to our town centre (Glasgow) without a hat, handbag and gloves, even just to do a bit of shopping. If you look at films of old football matches (soccer to you lot over the water) most of the men in the crowd are wearing hats and quite a few would be in suits and ties too.
I dress like a slob in my house (now I'm single) but when I go out for any reason I tend to smarten up. If it is a T shirt it is ironed and clean, shorts & trousers pressed and if in jeans tidy is the best way to describe them.
I spend most of the winter in Gambia W Africa which is a very poor country but even there they tend to put on their best for Friday prayers and buy new clothes for Tabaski even if they can't afford them. Out there it is difficult to say whether it is a cultural thing or one upmanship or just good manners.
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30th August 13, 06:58 AM
#75
Originally Posted by Phil
It is an inescapable fact of life that an individual will be judged by the way that he/she appears to the rest of society, irrespective of how good/intelligent/worthwhile that person may be. The young person dressed outlandishly with a mohican hairstyle, sporting tattoos and numerous piercings may have the best qualifications in the world and the most pleasant personality imaginable but will fail to get through the front door of 99% of employers just precisely because of appearance.
Dressing "properly" needn't involve a 3-piece suit, shirt and tie with well-polished shoes but a close approximation is likely to improve the individual's life chances considerably.
Fair enough, it's possible to be completely inappropriately dressed for an occasion. I hardly think someone wearing jeans and a t-shirt with an offensive slogan would be entertained at interview for a Doctor's practice or the police.
But that's an extreme. Having moved from an office environment in full time work to studying at university, what I have observed from my lecturers, some of whom are very senior in their field, that there is little or no link between standards of dress and percieved competency. Regardless of how students initially judge or perceive a lecturer when they walk into a room, we are usually in no doubt as to their ability about 20 seconds after they begin speaking.
If your job is to visually represent a company then it must be important, but lots of people never see customers face to face yet the interview panel still think it's important whether they polished their shoes or wore a matching tie.
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30th August 13, 07:15 AM
#76
I few years ago my wife and I were sitting in a cafe in France. I couple next to leaned over and said her husband and her were trying to guess our nationality. She said when you came in we thought German or maybe swiss, then we heard you speaking English, but not the "King's" English, probably not British, maybe Canadian. When we told them we were American, she said we never guessed that, you are far too well dressed to be Americans.
Also a few years ago, my wife and went into a restaurant in Montreal, Quebec, and were quite surprised to be greeted in English, rather than French. I asked the host why he had greeted us so and he seemed surprised we had American accents.
He said he greeted us in English because he though we were English by our dress. (My wife was wearing a skirt, I was wearing khakis with walking shoes. No cowboy boots, large belt buckles, or baseball caps.)
I considered this a wonderful compliment.
"You'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." -Obi Wan Kenobi
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30th August 13, 07:22 AM
#77
No matter how our cultures change, the question remains whether you wish to take the chance of someone taking an incorrect negative impression of you. Some of those who dress down have the job, have job security, and don't want anything.
Those who are familiar with either the movie or the TV series M*A*S*H will perhaps remember that Hawkeye and Pierce could do whatever they wanted because the army couldn't actually punish them much. What they wanted most was to be thrown out so they could go home and resume their private practices, neither of which would be likely barred to them if the army tossed them. To refer to another pop allusion, this one in music, "Me and Bobbie McGee" you may remember the lyrics "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose."
If on the other hand, you DO have something left to lose, use your best judgement. Case in point: rightly or wrongly, when I was bucking for a promotion or an appointment in my careers, I had a moustache... but no beard. I didn't need anyone to incorrectly judge me negatively. That person may not have even known why s/he did so. Might just not subconsciously like whiskers. It's subliminal self advertising.
Rev'd Father Bill White: Mostly retired Parish Priest & former Elementary Headmaster. Lover of God, dogs, most people, joy, tradition, humour & clarity. Legion Padre, theologian, teacher, philosopher, linguist, encourager of hearts & souls & a firm believer in dignity, decency, & duty. A proud Canadian Sinclair.
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30th August 13, 07:53 AM
#78
This has been a really enjoyable thread and there have been many points of view expressed with which I find myself in agreement. Clothing in western culture is very much a vehicle for self expression and can say a lot about how we perceive ourselves, our personal values and our relationship with the wider societal context.
I personally like and enjoy wearing well cut traditionally tailored clothes a lot of the time (THCD, suits, tweed sports jacket, navy blazer, khakis, cords etc.) but when relaxing with friends informally I may well be found in a pair of Levi 501's and a Led Zeppelin t-shirt (clean if not necessarily pressed). However, if you only ever met me in one context you may perceive me (superficially at least) to be a bit of a tweedy fogey, and in another as a middle aged 'old rocker'.
Both these elements have a degree of truth in them, but do not capture my persona entirely. The same guy who likes Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, The Who and The Clash has very eclectic music tastes which includes Scottish Folk songs and Classical composers such as Beethoven and Tchaikovsky. I also know how to behave appropriately in different settings and get on with different people be it at the lounge bar of Edinburgh's Caledonian Hotel or a working man's bar on Glasgow's Maryhill Road. I would dress differently for either venue but I can be comfortable in both. Context is key.
Last edited by Peter Crowe; 30th August 13 at 08:12 AM.
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30th August 13, 08:31 AM
#79
Originally Posted by Peter Crowe
I also know how to behave appropriately in different settings and get on with different people be it at the lounge bar of Edinburgh's Caledonian Hotel or a working man's bar on Glasgow's Maryhill Road. I would dress differently for either venue but I can be comfortable in both. Context is key.
I couldn't have said it better. Knowing how to behave and dress in various contexts definitely smoothes ones path through life.
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30th August 13, 08:58 AM
#80
Originally Posted by dutchy kilted
I few years ago my wife and I were sitting in a cafe in France. I couple next to leaned over and said her husband and her were trying to guess our nationality. She said when you came in we thought German or maybe swiss, then we heard you speaking English, but not the "King's" English, probably not British, maybe Canadian. When we told them we were American, she said we never guessed that, you are far too well dressed to be Americans.
Also a few years ago, my wife and went into a restaurant in Montreal, Quebec, and were quite surprised to be greeted in English, rather than French. I asked the host why he had greeted us so and he seemed surprised we had American accents.
He said he greeted us in English because he though we were English by our dress. (My wife was wearing a skirt, I was wearing khakis with walking shoes. No cowboy boots, large belt buckles, or baseball caps.)
I considered this a wonderful compliment.
Montrealers are quite adept at this. I used to perform there about once a month and there is certainly a different fashion sense between the Anglophones, Francophones and the various Allophones.
For example, loose khakis aren't as popular for Francophone men but closely tailored European fitted clothing of interesting fabrics are quite popular. The ladies don't seem dressed if they don't have a nice long scarf. Heavy for winter and sheer for summer. The choices of jewellery are also different.
In general, I think the French Montrealers tend to pay more attention to their attire.
It's harder to tell among the working class who may be seen during business hours in a t-shirt (often with a sports team or band insignia), worn jeans and baseball cap regardless of language.
Still, the kilt goes over quite well in Montreal among Anglos, Francos, and Allophones alike.
Natan Easbaig Mac Dhòmhnaill, FSA Scot
Past High Commissioner, Clan Donald Canada
“Yet still the blood is strong, the heart is Highland, And we, in dreams, behold the Hebrides.” - The Canadian Boat Song.
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