Seeking more opinions about White Tie and a velvet Sheriffmuir

[MacMillan of Rathdown]

In the more than three-score years I've worn a kilt, I've only once worn a plaid, and that was when I got married. The end of the plaid passed under the epaulette and was secured in place by a loop that slipped over the button on the end of the epaulette. The plaid-brooch was then attached to the plaid, high up on the shoulder, the pin passing through two loops sewn onto the plaid.

[CeilidhDoc]

Thanks for all the input everyone. These are all really good thoughts to take into consideration.

Slainte

[MacRobert's Reply]

I was wondering if you had the white one because you felt it was necessary for white tie or if you just like having a variety of options.

I just like the cream silk. Really any colour would do and a matching waistcoat is fine.

I guess the last question then is how many buttons to have on the vest. I am assuming at least 5, but Kinloch Anderson seems to advocate for a 7 button vest, and I have seen your 6 button white vest look good as well.

The cream silk and tartan silk waistcoats both have six buttons. The matching black velvet one only five. To look right with a jabot or cravat, the waistcoat needs to be cut with a high neckline, so six or seven buttons will do the job. I am only 5'7" tall so six are sufficient for me. I use the five button matching waistcoat to dress down and wear the doublet with a black bow tie but a higher cut matching waistcoat would be equally appropriate for white tie.

How much play is there with this in regards to the Sheriffmuir? Maybe I am just overthinking it but with the Jabot or a cravat it would seem that perhaps higher is better for a cleaner look and not much (if any) shirt showing other than the collar and a small framing around the necktie... although with either a jabot or a regency cravat the presentation of the neckwear is large enough that I can't imagine much shirt being visible either way.

I think you have the thinking right on this. Little shirt should show at the neck, and no shirt should show at the front with a jabot or cravat. The waistcoat needs to be high enough so that, together, the waistcoat and the jabot or cravat if worn outside the waistcoat cover the shirt front completely - no gap between bottom of jabot or cravat and waistcoat. However, if the cravat is worn inside the waistcoat the neckline of the waistcoat needs to be cut to expose the amount of cravat you want to show - a matter of personal taste.

[Phil]

Just for clarification as you asked originally about correct "white tie" wear this is what would be regarded as appropriate in Highland dress -


You have obviously decided on a Sheriffmuir, however, which is an excellent choice and a favourite of mine for a number of reasons, not least of which is it is worn open and so is cooler and, perhaps more important, is more forgiving of an expanding waistline!

Here are a few different ones -
Casual


formal


more formal


I know you don't like a jabot but a bow tie just doesn't look right with this jacket. A Kenmore in velvet might suit you better -

[CeilidhDoc]

Wow. Thank you all so much. Again, I really appreciate all of your comments.

And about the Jabot... I'm warming up to it. I found the one that is offered through Joannie Newsome and decided to bite the bullet. It looks way less frilly and sits flatter than most while remaining traditional. I think I can pull it off. I guess I will just have to see. I got it with the cuffs per the advice here so thanks again. Now once I get the jacket and vest I can go for the "make no waves" jabot and cuffs or tweak it if the crowd might be more forgiving and use the regency cravat as an alternative plus then I would have an alternative to my PC for black tie depending on how I'm feeling and what the temperature is like.

One last question I have (with no rush!) relates to tartan waistcoats. Are they always done in wool tartan? Or do people also have them made in silk? For instance, Dalgliesh can weave most tartans they offer in a variety of wool weights as well as silk with the same colors for an exact match. I would imagine that the silk would be much less hot indoors. Of course, I also imagine that the silk would be far less easy to come by and far more expensive, as well as primarily being made for women's clothing but perhaps I am wrong here and people use it for waistcoats... which is why I am asking. I'm just thinking out loud here, as I have never seen silk in tartan patterns in person but for a waistcoat maybe it makes sense if its vaguely affordable (this is all relative, of course).

Slainte

[MacRobert's Reply]

While most of the tartan waistcoats I have seen are wool, a few, including mine, are silk. The fabric is readily available in the UK. Just Google "dupion tartan silk". I purchased mine so long ago that I don't recall the price.

[CeilidhDoc]

Well I looked and looked but it would appear that for either of my tartan kilts (Lamont Modern and Lamont Dress Reproduction) the only way to get a silk version is to custom order from Dalgliesh the silk first and then have the waistcoat made, at $900 minimum order each. Ouch. Apparently my clan doesn't have enough surviving ancestors to create demand for standard stocked silk versions of the tartan. Must have been that pesky Dunoon massacre or something. Either that or a minimum number of ancestors can afford the silk.

These outfits can get quite expensive quite fast if you have a less common tartan. I suppose somewhere down the line I can have the silk done with enough so that my sons can have waistcoats made when they are grown or something. In the end that will be worth it.

Slainte

[CeilidhDoc]

I also just noticed an interesting thing about the old painting of highland white tie that Phil inserted above. It would appear that the brooch itself was used on the top of the shoulder to pin the fly plaid to the epaulette.

Interesting as I have never seen that done. I always see the brooch a bit lower down on the high anterior of the left chest.